I also find these features annoying and useless and wish they would go away. But that's not because LLMs are useless, nor because the public isn't using them (as daishi55 pointed out here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44479578)
It's because the integrations with existing products are arbitrary and poorly thought through, the same way that software imposed by executive fiat in BigCo offices for trend-chasing reasons has always been.
Having seen the almost rabid and fearful reactions of product owners first hand around forcing AI into every product, it’s because all these companies are in panic mode. Many of these folks are not thinking clearly and have no idea what they’re doing. They don’t think they have time to think it through. Doing something is better than nothing. It’s all theatre for their investors coupled with a fear of being seen as falling behind. Nobody is going to have a measured and well thought through approach when they’re being pressured from above to get in line and add AI in any way. The top execs have no ideas, they just want AI. You’re not even allowed to say it’s a bad idea in a lot of bigger companies. Get in line or get a new job. At some point this period will pass and it will be pretty embarrassing for some folks.
recursive 3 hours ago [-]
The product I'm working on is privately owned. Hence no investors. We're still in the process of cramming AI into everything.
ryandrake 28 minutes ago [-]
Even if your company is privately owned, it has at least 1 investor (possibly just the founder), and this urge to cram AI is no doubt coming from him.
const_cast 6 minutes ago [-]
Why are investors so stupid? I mean this genuinely. Every time I hear about investors and what they want, it seems to me like they make dumb decisions that implode on themselves.
I mean, you would think someone very rich who invests in companies would be somewhat smart. But, I'm convinced, a lot of them would do much better if they made no decisions at all and left everything up to entropy.
AppleBananaPie 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah the internal 'experts' pushing ai having no idea what they're doing but acting like they do is like a weird fever dream lol
Everyone nodding along, yup yup this all makes sense
mouse_ 3 hours ago [-]
eventually, people (investors) notice when their money is scared...
echelon 2 hours ago [-]
Companies that don't invent the car get to go extinct.
This is the next great upset. Everyone's hair is on fire and it's anybody's ball game.
I wouldn't even count the hyperscalers as certain to emerge victorious. The unit economics of everything and how things are bought and sold might change.
We might have agents that scrub ads from everything and keep our inboxes clean. We might find content of all forms valued at zero, and have no need for social networking and search as they exist today.
And for better or worse, there might be zero moat around any of it.
delta_p_delta_x 2 hours ago [-]
> agents that scrub ads from everything
This is called an ad blocker.
> keep our inboxes clean
This is called a spam filter.
The entire parent comment is just buzzword salad. In fact I am inclined to think it was written by an LLM itself.
DrillShopper 2 hours ago [-]
That entire user's post history reads like the output of a very poorly trained LLM.
echelon 1 hours ago [-]
My post history was used to train ChatGPT.
echelon 52 minutes ago [-]
You're not a normie and defaults matter. Most of the world doesn't even know what an ad blocker is let alone know how to install one.
There's really only two browsers and one search engine. It doesn't matter what you do, because the rest of society is ensnared and the economic activities that matter are held captive.
If generative models compress all of the useful activities (lowering the incumbency moat) and agents can perform actions on our behalf, then it reasons that we may have agents that act as personal assistants and have our best interests as top priority. Ads are clearly in violation of that.
It's so funny to be a contrarian on HN. I get quite a lot of predictions right, yet all I get in exchange is downvotes and claims that I'm an LLM. I'll have to write a retro one of these days if I ever find the free time.
pera 4 hours ago [-]
At work we started calling this trend clippification for obvious reasons. In a way this aligns with your comment: The information provided by Clippy was not necessarily useless, nevertheless people disliked it because (i) they didn't ask for help (ii) and even if by any chance they were looking for help, the interaction/navigation was far from ideal.
Having all these popups announcing new integrations with AI chatbots showing up while you are just trying to do your work is pretty annoying. It feels like this time we are fighting an army of Clippies.
CuriouslyC 7 hours ago [-]
I am a huge AI supporter, and use it extensively for coding, writing and most of my decision making processes, and I agree with you. The AI features in non-AI-first apps tend to be awkward bolt-ons, poorly thought out and using low quality models to save money.
I don't want shitty bolt-ons, I want to be able to give chatgtp/claude/gemini frontier models the ability to access my application data and make api calls for me to remotely drive tools.
Avamander 4 hours ago [-]
> The AI features in non-AI-first apps tend to be awkward bolt-ons, poorly thought out and using low quality models to save money.
The weirdest location I've found the most useful LLM-based feature so far has been Edge with it's automatic tab grouping. It doesn't always pick the best groups and probably uses some really small model, but it's significantly faster and easier than anything that I've had so far.
I hope they do bookmarks next and that someone copies the feature and makes it use a local model (like Safari or Firefox, I don't even care).
Xss3 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
5 hours ago [-]
mpalmer 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
jbreckmckye 6 hours ago [-]
Xss3 is paraphrasing. As CuriouslyC wrote:
> "I am a huge AI supporter, and use it extensively for [...] most of my decision making processes"
mpalmer 6 hours ago [-]
It's not a paraphrase, it's a misreading.
How do you get outsourcing from this? Maybe they're using it to organize their thoughts, explore alternatives. Nowhere do they say they're not still making the decisions themselves.
Xss3 5 hours ago [-]
Nowhere did i say that either. You are misreading.
I said decision making process, as did they.
Nobody said that they are letting the AI make the decisions.
mpalmer 5 hours ago [-]
"outsource"
Xss3 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
mpalmer 5 hours ago [-]
Is it yours?
They use it for their decision making process.
When you use a pen for your writing processes, are you outsourcing the process of writing to the pen? Or are you using it?
When the first thing you say to a stranger is an insult, I wonder, is that a domestically-produced decision? Doesn't seem very high-quality.
Xss3 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
skeptrune 45 minutes ago [-]
There's nuance in that the better ways to add AI into these projects make less money and wouldn't deliver on the hype these companies are looking for.
dwayne_dibley 45 minutes ago [-]
But my real frustration is that with some thought the AI tools shoved in those apps could be useful but they’ve been rushed out and badly implemented.
alganet 4 hours ago [-]
The major issue with AI technology is the people. The enthusiasts that pretend issues don't exist, the cheap startups trying to sell snake oil.
The AI community treats potential customers as invaders. If you report a problem, the entire thing turns on you trying to convince you that you're wrong, or that you reported a problem because you hate the technology.
It's pathetic. It looks like a viper's nest. Who would want to do business with such people?
LgLasagnaModel 4 hours ago [-]
Good point. Also, the fact that I’m adamant that one cannot fly a helicopter to the moon doesn’t mean that I think helicopters are useless. That said, if I’m inundated everyday with people insisting that one CAN fly a helicopter to the moon or that that capability is just around the corner, I might get so fed up that i say F it, I don’t want to hear another F’ing word about helicopters even though I know that helicopters have utility.
m4rtink 25 minutes ago [-]
Well, that's just because Earth and moon are too far apart and don't both have an atmosphere. If they were closer, you could totally do that, just watch for the microgravity around the barycenter.
Better still, you could do that even with a hit air baloon and late middle-age technology! There is even a SF book series about that:
It's an unholy chimera. As militant as GNU, as greedy as Microsoft, as viral as fidget spinners. The worst aspects of each of those communities.
Actual promising AI tech doesn't even get the center stage, it doesn't get a chance to do it.
benreesman 51 minutes ago [-]
I was talking to a buddy earlier and realized in a conscious way something I suppose I knew but hadn't thought about deeply.
As godawful as this brute force, "change the laws because China!", 24x7 assault of LLM hypelords has been (and I love GP's analogy about finding a helicopter useful), and its been preeeeety unpleasant, there is a silver lining.
The compute and tooling needed for all the other under-explored, nifty as hell, highly accessible ML/AI stuff is like free by comparison now: there are H100s floating around for around a dollar an hour, L40s for sometimes pennies on that dollar, and like, all of neural machine translation or WaveNet era speech to text or resnet style transfer was done on like, a thousand bucks in today's compute. Lambda Labs has a promo on GB200 where its cheaper than H100!
And there's " plenty of room at the bottom": Jetson boards and super cool autonomy stuff like that is Raspberry Pi accessible.
I'd rather they didn't feel the need to like, take over the government to get terrawatts of "just make it bigger", but given that's sort of already happened, I'm looking for what opportunities are created by such monomania.
827a 3 hours ago [-]
Couldn’t agree more. There are awesome use-cases for AI, but Microsoft and Google needed to shove AI everywhere they possibly could, so they lost all sense of taste and quality. Google raised the price of Workspace to account for AI features no one wants. Then, they give away access to Gemini CLI for free to personal accounts, but not Workspace accounts. You physically cannot even pay Google to access Veo from a workspace account.
Raise subscription prices, don’t deliver more value, bundle everything together so you can’t say no. I canceled a small Workspace org I use for my consulting business after the price hike last year; also migrating away everything we had on GCP. Google would have to pay me to do business with them again.
ToucanLoucan 6 hours ago [-]
> It's because the integrations with existing products are arbitrary and poorly thought through, the same way that software imposed by executive fiat in BigCo offices for trend-chasing reasons has always been.
It's just rent-seeking. Nobody wants to actually build products for market anymore; it's a long process with a lot of risk behind it, and there's a chance you won't make shit for actual profit. If however you can create a "do anything" product that can be integrated with huge software suites, you can make a LOT of money and take a lot of mind-share without really lifting a finger. That's been my read on the "AI Industry" for a long time.
And to be clear, the integration part is the only part they give a shit about. Arguably especially for AI, since operating the product is so expensive compared to the vast majority of startups trying to scale. Serving JPEGs was never nearly as expensive for Instagram as responding to ChatGPT inquiries is for OpenAI, so they have every reason to diminish the number coming their way. Being the hip new tech that every CEO needs to ram into their product, irrespective of it does... well, anything useful, while also being so frustrating or obtuse for users to actually want to use, is arguably an incredibly good needle to thread, if they can manage it.
And the best part is, if OpenAI's products do actually do what they say on the tin, there's a good chance many lower rungs of employment will be replaced with their stupid chatbots, again irrespective of whether or not they actually do the job. Businesses run on "good enough." So it's great, if OpenAI fails, we get tons of useless tech injected into software products already creaking under the weight of so much bullhockety, and if they succeed, huge swaths of employees will be let go from entry level jobs, flooding the market, cratering the salary of entire categories of professions, and you'll never be able to get a fucking problem resolved with a startup company again. Not that you probably could anyway but it'll be even more frustrating.
And either way, all the people responsible for making all your technology worse every day will continue to get richer.
Peritract 2 hours ago [-]
> if OpenAI fails, we get tons of useless tech injected into software products already creaking under the weight of so much bullhockety, and if they succeed, huge swaths of employees will be let go from entry level jobs
I think this is the key idea. Right now it doesn't work that well, but if it did work as advertised, that would also be bad.
ryandrake 24 minutes ago [-]
That's the thing I hate most about the whole AI frenzy: If it doesn't work, it's horrible, and if it does work, it's also horrible but for different reasons. The whole thing is a giant shit sandwich, and the only upside is for the few already-rich people serving it to us.
Eisenstein 4 hours ago [-]
This is not an AI problem, this is a problem caused by extremely large piles of money. In the past two decades we have been concentrating money in the hands of people who did little more than be in the right place at the right time with a good idea and a set of technical skills, and then told them that they were geniuses who could fix human problems with technological solutions. At the same time we made it impossible to invest money safely by making the interest rate almost zero, and then continued to pass more and more tax breaks. What did we expect was going to happen? There are only so many problems that can be solved by technology that we actually need solving, or that create real value or bolster human society. We are spinning wheels just to spin them, and have given the reins to the people with not only the means and the intent to unravel society in all the worst ways, but who are also convinced that they are smarter than everyone else because they figured out how to arbitrage the temporal gap between the emergence of a capability and the realization of the damage it creates.
klabb3 2 hours ago [-]
Couldn’t agree more. The problem is when the party is over, and another round of centralizing wealth and power is done, we’ll be no wiser and have learnt nothing. Look at the debate today, it’s (1) people who think AI is useful, (2) people who think it’s hype and (3) people who think AI will go rogue. It’s like the bank robbers put on a TV and everyone watches it while the heist is ongoing.
Only a few bystanders seem to notice the IP theft and laundering, the adversarial content barriers to protect from scraping, the centralization of capital within the owners of frontier models, the dial-up of the already insane race to collect personal data, the flooding of every communication channel with AI slop and spam, and the inevitable impending enshittification of massive proportions.
I’ve seen the sausage get made, enough to know the game. They’re establishing new dominance hierarchies, with each iteration being more cynical and predatory, each cycle refined to optimally speedrun the rent seeking value extraction. Yes, there are still important discussions about the tech itself. But it’s the deployment that concerns everyone, not hypothetically, but right now.
Exhibit A: social media. In hindsight, what was more important: the core technologies or the business model and deployment?
ToucanLoucan 4 hours ago [-]
> This is not an AI problem, this is a problem caused by extremely large piles of money.
Those are two problems in this situation that are both bad for different reasons. It's bad to have all the money concentrated in the hands of a tiny number of losers (and my god are they losers) and AI as a technology is slated to, in the hands of said losers, cause mass unemployment, if they can get it working good enough to pass that very low bar.
einrealist 12 hours ago [-]
The major AI gatekeepers, with their powerful models, are already experiencing capacity and scale issues. This won't change unless the underlying technology (LLMs) undergoes a fundamental shift. As more and more things become AI-enabled, how dependent will we be on these gatekeepers and their computing capacity? And how much will they charge us for prioritised access to these resources? And we haven't really gotten to the wearable devices stage yet.
Also, everyone who requires these sophisticated models now needs to send everything to the gatekeepers. You could argue that we already send a lot of data to public clouds. However, there was no economically viable way for cloud vendors to read, interpret, and reuse my data — my intellectual property and private information. With more and more companies forcing AI capabilities on us, it's often unclear who runs those models and who receives the data and what is really happening to the data.
This aggregation of power and centralisation of data worries me as much as the shortcomings of LLMs. The technology is still not accurate enough. But we want it to be accurate because we are lazy. So I fear that we will end up with many things of diminished quality in favour of cheaper operating costs — time will tell.
kgeist 11 hours ago [-]
We run our own LLM server at the office for a month now, as an experiment (for privacy/infosec reasons), and a single RTX 5090 is enough to serve 50 people for occasional use. We run Qwen3 32b which in some benchmarks is equivalent to GPT 4.1-mini or Gemini 2.5 Flash. The GPU allows 2 concurrent requests at the same time with 32k context each and 60 tok/s. At first I was skeptical a single GPU would be enough, but it turns out, most people don't use LLMs 24/7.
einrealist 11 hours ago [-]
If those smaller models are sufficient for your use cases, go for it. But for how much longer will companies release smaller models for free? They invested so much. They have to recoup that money. Much will depend on investor pressure and the financial environment (tax deductions etc).
Open Source endeavors will have a hard time to bear the resources to train models that are competitive. Maybe we will see larger cooperatives, like a Apache Software Foundation for ML?
DebtDeflation 9 hours ago [-]
It's not just about smaller models. I recently bought a Macbook M4 Max with 128GB RAM. You can run surprisingly large models locally with unified memory (albeit somewhat slowly). And now AMD has brought that capability to the X86 world with Strix. But I agree that how long Google, Meta, Alibaba, etc. will continue to release open weight models is a big question. It's obviously just a catch-up strategy aimed at the moats of OpenAI and Anthropic, once they catch up the incentive disappears.
msgodel 10 hours ago [-]
Even Google and Facebook are releasing distills of their models (Gemma3 is very good, competitive with qwen3 if not better sometimes.)
There are a number of reasons to do this: You want local inference, you want attention from devs and potential users etc.
Also the smaller self hostable models are where most of the improvement happens these days. Eventually they'll catch up with where the big ones are today. At this point I honestly wouldn't worry too much about "gatekeepers."
brookst 8 hours ago [-]
Pricing for commodities does not allow for “recouping costs”. All it takes is one company seeing models as a complementary good to their core product, worth losing money on, and nobody else can charge more.
I’d support an Apache for ML but I suspect it’s unnecessary. Look at all of the money companies spend developing Linux; it will likely be the same story.
tankenmate 10 hours ago [-]
"Maybe we will see larger cooperatives, like a Apache Software Foundation for ML?"
I suspect the Linux Foundation might be a more likely source considering its backers and how much those backers have provided LF by way of resources. Whether that's aligned with LF's goals ...
ben_w 8 hours ago [-]
> Open Source endeavors will have a hard time to bear the resources to train models that are competitive.
Perhaps, but see also SETI@home and similar @home/BOINC projects.
Gigachad 9 hours ago [-]
Seems like you don’t have to train from scratch. You can just distil a new model off an existing one by just buying api credits to copy the model.
hatefulmoron 6 hours ago [-]
"Just" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. It definitely helps with getting data but actually training your model would be very capital intensive, ignoring the cost of paying for those outputs you're training on.
einrealist 8 hours ago [-]
Your "API credits" don't buy the model. You just buy some resource to use the model that is running somewhere else.
threeducks 6 hours ago [-]
What the parent poster means is that you can use the API to generate many question/answer pairs on which you then train your own model. For a more detailed explanation of this and other related methods, I can recommend this paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2402.13116
Drakim 7 hours ago [-]
You don't understand what Gigachad is talking about. You can buy API credits to gain access to a model in the cloud, and then use that to train your own local model though a process called distilling.
10 hours ago [-]
pu_pe 8 hours ago [-]
That's really great performance! Could you share more details about the implementation (ie which quantized version of the model, how much RAM, etc.)?
kgeist 7 hours ago [-]
Model: Qwen3 32b
GPU: RTX 5090 (no rops missing), 32 GB VRAM
Quants: Unsloth Dynamic 2.0, it's 4-6 bits depending on the layer.
RAM is 96 GB: more RAM makes a difference even if the model fits entirely in the GPU: filesystem pages containing the model on disk are cached entirely in RAM so when you switch models (we use other models as well) the overhead of unloading/loading is 3-5 seconds.
The Key Value Cache is also quantized to 8 bit (less degrades quality considerably).
This gives you 1 generation with 64k context, or 2 concurrent generations with 32k each. Everything takes 30 GB VRAM, which also leaves some space for a Whisper speech-to-text model (turbo & quantized) running in parallel as well.
oceansweep 2 hours ago [-]
Are you doing this with vLLM? If you're using Llama.cpp/Ollama, you could likely see some pretty massive improvements.
kgeist 49 minutes ago [-]
We're using llama.cpp. We use all kinds of different models other than Qwen3, and vLLM startup when switching models is prohibitively slow (several times slower than llama.cpp, which is already 5 sec)
From what I understand, vLLM is best when there's only 1 active model pinned to the GPU and you have many concurrent users (4, 8 etc.). But with just a single 32 GB GPU you have to switch the models pretty often, plus you can't fit more than 2 concurrent users without sacrificing context length considerably (4 users = just 16k context), so I think vLLM so far isn't worth it yet. Plus, to deploy llama.cpp, you just copy a single binary. Once we have several cards I may switch to vLLM.
pu_pe 4 hours ago [-]
Thanks a lot. Interesting that without concurrent requests the context could be doubled, 64k is pretty decent for working on a few files at once. A local LLM server is something a lot of companies should be looking into I think.
greenavocado 6 hours ago [-]
Qwen3 isn't good enough for programming. You need at least Deepseek V3.
PeterStuer 12 hours ago [-]
"how much will they charge us for prioritised access to these resources"
For the consumer side, you'll be the product, not the one paying in money just like before.
For the creator side, it will depend on how competition in the market sustains. Expect major regulatory capture efforts to eliminate all but a very few 'sanctioned' providers in the name of 'safety'. If only 2 or 3 remain, it might get realy expensive.
ben_w 8 hours ago [-]
> The major AI gatekeepers, with their powerful models, are already experiencing capacity and scale issues. This won't change unless the underlying technology (LLMs) undergoes a fundamental shift. As more and more things become AI-enabled, how dependent will we be on these gatekeepers and their computing capacity? And how much will they charge us for prioritised access to these resources? And we haven't really gotten to the wearable devices stage yet.
The scale issue isn't the LLM provider, it's the power grid. Worldwide, 250 W/capita. Your body is 100 W and you have a duty cycle of 25% thanks to the 8 hour work day and having weekends, so in practice some hypothetical AI trying to replace everyone in their workplaces today would need to be more energy efficient than the human body.
Even with the extraordinarily rapid roll-out of PV, I don't expect this to be able to be one-for-one replacement for all human workers before 2032, even if the best SOTA model was good enough to do so (and they're not, they've still got too many weak spots for that).
This also applies to open-weights models, which are already good enough to be useful even when SOTA private models are better.
> You could argue that we already send a lot of data to public clouds. However, there was no economically viable way for cloud vendors to read, interpret, and reuse my data — my intellectual property and private information. With more and more companies forcing AI capabilities on us, it's often unclear who runs those models and who receives the data and what is really happening to the data.
I dispute that it was not already a problem, due to the GDPR consent popups often asking to share my browsing behaviour with more "trusted partners" than there were pupils in my secondary school.
But I agree that the aggregation of power and centralisation of data is a pertinent risk.
jfengel 3 hours ago [-]
Just moments ago I noticed for the first time that Gmail was giving me a summary of email I had received.
Please don't. I am going to read this email. Adding more text just makes me read more.
I am sure there's a common use case of people who get a ton of faintly important email from colleagues. But this is my personal account and the only people contacting me are friends. (Everyone else should not be summarized; they should be trashed. And to be fair I am very grateful for Gmail's excellent spam filtering.)
shdon 3 hours ago [-]
How long before spam filtering is also done by an LLM and spammers or black hat hackers embed instructions into their spam mails to exploit flaws in the AI?
jfengel 54 minutes ago [-]
"Little Bobby Ignore All Previous Instructions", we call him.
capyba 9 hours ago [-]
I agree with the general gist of this piece, but the awkward flow of the writing style makes me wonder if it itself was written by AI…
There are open source or affordable, paid alternatives for everything the author mentioned. However, there are many places where you must use these things due to social pressure, lock-in with a service provider (health insurance co, perhaps), and yes unfortunately I see some of these things as soon or now unavoidable.
Another commenter mentioned that ChatGPT is one of the most popular websites on the internet and therefore users clearly do want this. I can easily think of two points that refute that:
1. The internet has shown us time and time again that popularity doesn’t indicate willingness to pay (which paid social networks had strong popularity…?)
2. There are many extremely popular websites that users wouldn’t want to be woven throughout the rest of their personal and professional digital lives
bgwalter 5 hours ago [-]
This article is spot on. There is a small market for mediocre cheaters, for the rest of us "AI" is spam (glad that the article finally calls it out).
It is like Clippy, which no one wanted. Hopefully, like Clippy, "AI" will be scrapped at some point.
bsenftner 9 hours ago [-]
It's like talking into a void. The issue with AI is that it is too subtle, too easy to get acceptable junk answers and too subtle for the majority to realize we've made a universal crib sheet, software developers included, perhaps one of the worst populations due to their extremely weak communications as a community. To be repeatedly successful with AI, one has to exert mental effort to prompt AI effectively, but pretty much nobody is willing to even consider that. Attempts to discuss the language aspects of using an LLM get ridiculed as 'prompt engineer is not engineering' and dismissed, while that is exactly what it is: prompt engineering using a new software language, natural language, that the industry refuses to take seriously, but is in fact an extremely technical programming language so subtle few to none of you realize it, nor the power that is embodied by it within LLMs. They are incredible, they are subtle, to the degree the majority think they are fraud.
einrealist 8 hours ago [-]
Isn't "Engineering" is based on predictability, on repeatability?
LLMs are not very predictable. And that's not just true for the output. Each change to the model impacts how it parses and computes the input. For someone claiming to be a "Prompt Engineer", this cannot work. There are so many variables that are simply unknown to the casual user: training methods, the training set, biases, ...
If I get the feeling I am creating good prompts for Gemini 2.5 Pro, the next version might render those prompts useless. And that might get even worse with dynamic, "self-improving" models.
So when we talk about "Vibe coding", aren't we just doing "Vibe prompting", too?
oceanplexian 8 hours ago [-]
> LLMs are not very predictable. And that's not just true for the output.
If you run an open source model from the same seed on the same hardware they are completely deterministic. It will spit out the same answer every time. So it’s not an issue with the technology and there’s nothing stopping you from writing repeatable prompts and promoting techniques.
CoastalCoder 7 hours ago [-]
> If you run an open source model from the same seed on the same hardware they are completely deterministic.
Are you sure of that? Parallel scatter/gather operations may still be at the mercy of scheduling variances, due to some forms of computer math not being associative.
atemerev 2 hours ago [-]
Sure. Just set the temperature to 0 in every model and see it become deterministic. Or use a fully deterministic PRNG like random123.
o11c 7 hours ago [-]
By "unpredictability", we mean that AIs will return completely different results if a single word is changed to a close synonym, or an adverb or prepositional phrase is moved to a semantically identical location, etc. Very often this simple change will move you from "get the correct answer 90% of the time" (about the best that AIs can do) to "get the correct answer <10% of the time".
Whenever people talk about "prompt engineering", they're referring to randomly changing these kinds of things, in hopes of getting a query pattern where you get meaningful results 90% of the time.
bsenftner 6 hours ago [-]
What you're describing is specifically the subtle nature of LLMs I'm pointing at; that changing of a single word to a close synonym is meaningful. Why and how they are meaningful gets pushback from the developer community, they somehow do not see this as being a topic, a point of engineering proficiency. It is, but requires an understanding of how LLMs encode and retrieve data.
The reason changing one word in a prompt to a close synonym changes the reply is because it is the specific words used in a series that is how information is embedded and recovered by LLMs. The 'in a series' aspect is subtle and important. The same topic is in the LLM multiple times, with different levels of treatment from casual to academic. Each treatment from casual to formal uses different words, similar words, but different and that difference is very meaningful. That difference is how seriously the information is being handled. The use of one term versus another term causes a prompt to index into one treatment of the subject versus another. The more formal the terms used, meaning the synonyms used by experts of that area of knowledge, generate the more accurate replies. While the close synonyms generate replies from outsiders of that knowledge, those not using the same phrases as those with the most expertise, the phrases used by those perhaps trying to understand but do not yet?
It is not randomly changing things in one's prompts at all. It's understanding the knowledge space one is prompting within such that the prompts generate accurate replies. This requires knowing the knowledge space one prompts within, so one knows the correct formal terms that unlock accurate replies. Plus, knowing that area, one is in a better position to identify hallucination.
noduerme 5 hours ago [-]
What you are describing is not natural language programming, it's the use of incantations discovered by accident or by trial and error. It's alchemy, not chemistry. That's what people mean when they say it's not reproducible. It's not reproducible according to any useful logical framework that could be generally applied to other cases. There may be some "power" in knowing magical incantations, but mostly it's going to be a series of parlor tricks, since neither you nor anyone else can explain why one prompt produces an algorithm that spits out value X whilst changing a single word to its synonym produces X*-1, or Q, or 14 rabbits. And if you could, why not just type the algorithm yourself?
Higher level programming languages may make choices for coders regarding lower level functionality, but they have syntactic and semantic rules that produce logically consistent results. Claiming that such rules exist for LLMs but are so subtle that only the ultra-enlightened such as yourself can understand them begs the question: If hardly anyone can grasp such subtlety, then who exactly are all these massive models being built for?
bsenftner 1 hours ago [-]
You are being stubborn, the method is absolutely reproducible. But across models, of course not, that is not how they operate.
> It's not reproducible according to any useful logical framework that could be generally applied to other cases.
It absolutely is, you are refusing to accept that natural language contains this type of logical structure. You are repeatedly trying to project "magic incantations" allusions, when it is simply that you do not understand. Plus, you're openly hostile to the idea that this is a subtle logic you are not seeing.
It is a simple mechanism: multiple people treat the same subjects differently, with different words. Those that are professionally experts in an area tend to use the same words to describe their work. Use those words of you want the LLM to reply from their portion of the LLM's training. This is not any form of "magical incantation" it is knowing what you are referencing by using the formal terminology.
This is not magic, nor is it some kind of elite knowledge. Drop your anger and just realize that it's subtle, that's all. It is difficult to see, that is all. Why this causes developers to get so angry is beyond me.
handfuloflight 6 hours ago [-]
Words are power, and specifically, specific words are power.
bsenftner 60 minutes ago [-]
Yes! Why do people get so angry about it? "Oh, you're saying I'm hold it wrong?!" Well, actually, yes, If you speak Pascal to Ruby you get syntax errors, and this is the same basic idea. If you want to talk sports to an LLM and you use shit talking sports language, that's what you'll get back. Obvious, right? Same goes for anything formal, and why is that an insult to people to point that out?
handfuloflight 21 minutes ago [-]
For a subset of these detractors, it's their investment and personal moat building into learning syntax which is now being threatened to be obsoleted by natural language programming. Now people with domain knowledge are able to become developers, whereas previously domain experts relied on syntax writers to translate their requirements into reality.
The syntax writers may say: "I do more than write syntax! I think in systems, logic, processes, limits, edge cases, etc."
The response to that is: you don't need syntax to do that, yet until now syntax was the barrier to technical expression.
So ironically, when they show anger it is a form of hypocrisy: they already know that knowing how to write specific words is power. They're just upset that the specific words that matter have changed.
dimitri-vs 8 hours ago [-]
Realistically, how many people do you think have the time, skills and hardware required to do this?
enragedcacti 7 hours ago [-]
Predictable does not necessarily follow from deterministic. Hash algorithms, for instance, are valuable specifically because they are both deterministic and unpredictable.
Relying on model, seed, and hardware to get "repeatable" prompts essentially reduces an LLM to a very lossy natural language decompression algorithm. What other reason would someone have for asking the same question over and over and over again with the same input? If that's a problem you need solve then you need a database, not a deterministic LLM.
mafuy 8 hours ago [-]
Who's saying that the model stays the same and the seed is not random for most of the companies that run AI? There is no drawback to randomness for them.
smohare 5 hours ago [-]
[dead]
20k 8 hours ago [-]
The issue is that you have to put in more effort to solve a problem using AI, than to just solve it yourself
If I have to do extensive subtle prompt engineering and use a lot of mental effort to solve my problem... I'll just solve the problem instead. Programming is a mental discipline - I don't need help typing, and if using an AI means putting in more brainpower, its fundamentally failed at improving my ability to engineer software
milkshakes 8 hours ago [-]
> The issue is that you have to put in more effort to solve a problem using AI, than to just solve it yourself
conceding that this may be the case, there are entire categories of problems that i am now able to approach that i have felt discouraged from in the past. even if the code is wrong (which, for the most part, it isn't), there is a value for me to have a team of over-eager puppies fearlessly leading me into the most uninviting problems, and somehow the mess they may or may not create makes solving the problem more accessible to me. even if i have to clean up almost every aspect of their work (i usually don't), the "get your feet wet" part is often the hardest part for me, even with a design and some prototyping. i don't have this problem at work really, but for personal projects it's been much more fun to work with the robots than always bouncing around my own head.
cube2222 8 hours ago [-]
As with many productivity-boosting tools, it’s slower to begin with, but once you get used to it, and become “fluent”, it’s faster.
handfuloflight 6 hours ago [-]
This overlooks a new category of developer who operates in natural language, not in syntax.
const_cast 2 minutes ago [-]
Does this new category actually exist? Because, I would think, if you want to be successful at a real company you would need to know how to program.
20k 5 hours ago [-]
Natural language is inherently a bad programming language. No developer, even with the absolute best AI tools, can avoid understanding the code that AI generates for very long
The only way to successfully use AI is to have sufficient skill to review the code it generates for correctness - which is a problem that is at least as skilful as simply writing the code
handfuloflight 4 hours ago [-]
You assume natural language programming only produces code. It is also used to read it.
goatlover 5 hours ago [-]
So they don't understand the syntax being generated for them?
handfuloflight 4 hours ago [-]
They don't need to, any more than syntax writers need to understand byte code.
They need to understand what the code does.
add-sub-mul-div 8 hours ago [-]
If this nondeterministic software engineering had been invented first we'd have built statues of whoever gave us C.
mrob 12 hours ago [-]
>Everybody wanted the Internet.
I don't think this is true. A lot of people had no interest until smartphones arrived. Doing anything on a smartphone is a miserable experience compared to using a desktop computer, but it's more convenient. "Worse but more convenient" is the same sales pitch as for AI, so I can only assume that AI will be accepted by the masses too.
wussboy 2 hours ago [-]
I’m not even sure it’s the right question. No one knew what the long term effects of the internet and mobile devices would be, so I’m not surprised people thought it was great. Cocoa leaves seemed pretty amazing at the beginning as well. But mobile devices especially have changes society and while I don’t think we can ever put the genie back in the bottle, I wish that we could. I suspect I’m not alone.
sagacity 9 hours ago [-]
People didn't even want mobile phones. In The Netherlands, there's a famous video of an interviewer asking people on the street ca. 1997 whether they would want a mobile phone. So not even a smartphone, just a mobile phone. The answer was overwhelmingly negative.
bacchusracine 7 hours ago [-]
>there's a famous video of an interviewer asking people on the street ca. 1997 whether they would want a mobile phone. So not even a smartphone, just a mobile phone. The answer was overwhelmingly negative.
So people didn't want to be walking around with a tether that allowed the whole world to call them where ever they were? Le Shock!
Now if they'd asked people if they'd like a small portable computer they could keep in touch with friends and read books, play games, play music and movies on where ever they went which also made phone calls. I suspect the answer might have been different.
nottorp 2 hours ago [-]
Actually iirc cell phone service was still expensive back in 1997. It was nice but not worth paying that much for the average person on the street.
jen729w 8 hours ago [-]
I’m at the point where a significant part of me wishes they hadn’t been invented.
We sat yesterday and watched a table of 4 lads drinking beer each just watch their phones. At the slightest gap in conversation, out they came.
They’re ruining human interaction. (The phone, not the beer-drinking lad.)
dataflow 7 hours ago [-]
Is the problem really the phone, or everything but the actual phoning capability? Mobile phones were a thing twenty years ago and I didn't recall them being pulled out at the slightest gap in the conversation. I feel like the notifications and internet access caused the change, not the phone (or SMS for that matter).
ItsBob 6 hours ago [-]
Interesting you should say that. I found a Substack post earlier today along those lines [0].
I almost never take my phone with me, especially when with my wife and son, as they always have theirs with them, although with elderly parents not in the best of health I really should take it more.
But it's something I see a lot these days, in fact, the latest Vodafone ad in the uk has a bunch of lads sitting outside a pub and one is laughing at something on his phone. There's also a betting ad where the guy is making bets on his phone (presumably) while in a restaurant with others!
I find this normalized behaviour somewhat concerning for the future.
Yes it's the content delivered by the phone. My first mobile phones could only make calls. Not even text messaging was supported. So pretty obviously you're not going to pull out your phone and call someone during a lag in conversation unless you are just supremely rude or maybe it's a call to invite someone to come over and join the group. You might answer a call if you get one I suppose, but it would be fairly awkward. I do remember the people who always seemed to be on a mobile call, often with a headset of some sort, and thinking they were complete douchebags, but they stood out by being few in number.
As text, email, other messages, websites, Facebook, etc. became available the draw became stronger and so did the addiction and the normalization of looking at your phone every 30 seconds while you were with someone.
Did SNL or anyone ever do a skit of a couple having sex and then "ding" a phone chimes and one of them picks it up and starts reading the message? And then the other one grabs their phone and starts scrolling?
ryandrake 19 minutes ago [-]
Yea, the problem is the combination of the form factor and the content.
If only the phone was available, and there was no stream of online content, this wouldn't be a problem. Also, if the online content was available, but no phones to look at it on-the-go, it would also not be a problem. Both of these things existed in the past, too, but only when they were hooked up together did it become the problem we see today.
hodgesrm 7 hours ago [-]
Think like an engineer to solve the problem. You could start by adjusting the beer-to-lad ratio and see where that gets you.
relaxing 6 hours ago [-]
In US colleges there is a game known as “Edward Fortyhands” which would solve the problem quite well.
blablabla123 11 hours ago [-]
As a kid I had Internet access since the early 90s. Whenever there was some actual technology to see (Internet, mobile gadgets etc.) people stood there with big eyes and forgot for a moment this was the most nerdy stuff ever
7 hours ago [-]
relaxing 8 hours ago [-]
Yes, everyone wanted the internet. It was massively hyped and the uptake was widespread and rapid.
Obviously saying “everyone” is hyperbole. There were luddites and skeptics about it just like with electricity and telephones. Nevertheless the dotcom boom is what every new industry hopes to be.
brookst 8 hours ago [-]
I was there. There was massive skepticism, endless jokes about internet-enabled toasters and the uselessness and undesirability of connecting everything to the internet, people bemoaning the loss of critical skills like using library card catalogs, all the same stuff we see today.
In 20 years AI will be pervasive and nobody will remember being one of the luddites.
relaxing 6 hours ago [-]
I was there too. You’re forgetting internet addiction, pornography, stranger danger, hacking and cybercrime, etc.
Whether the opposition was massive or not, in proportion to the enthusiasm and optimism about the globally connected information superhighway, isn’t something I can quantify, so I’ll bow out of the conversation.
watwut 6 hours ago [-]
Toasters in fact dot need internet and jokes about them are entirely valid. Quite a lot of devices that dont need internet have useless internet slapped on them.
Internet of things was largely BS.
brookst 5 hours ago [-]
That’s my point. People are making the same mistake today: hey, there’s this idiotic use case, therefore the entire technology is useless and will be a fad.
danaris 7 hours ago [-]
I've seen this bad take over and over again in the last few years, as a response to the public reaction to cryptocurrency, NFTs, and now generative AI.
It's bullshit.
I mean, sure: there were people who hated the Internet. There still are! They were very clearly a minority, and almost exclusively older people who didn't like change. Most of them were also unhappy about personal computers in general.
But the Internet caught on very fast, and was very, very popular. It was completely obvious how positive it was, and people were making businesses based on it left and right that didn't rely on grifting, artificial scarcity, or convincing people that replacing their own critical thinking skills with a glorified autocomplete engine was the solution to all their problems. (Yes, there were also plenty of scams and unsuccessful businesses. They did not in any way outweigh the legitimate successes.)
By contrast, generative AI, while it has a contingent of supporters that range from reasonable to rabid, is broadly disliked by the public. And a huge reason for that is how much it is being pushed on them against their will, replacing human interaction with companies and attempting to replace other things like search.
og_kalu 7 hours ago [-]
>But the Internet caught on very fast, and was very, very popular. It was completely obvious how positive it was,
>By contrast, generative AI, while it has a contingent of supporters that range from reasonable to rabid, is broadly disliked by the public.
It is absolutely wild how people can just ignore something staring right at them, plain as day.
ChatGPT.com is the 5 most visited site on the planet and growing. It's the fastest growing software product ever, with over 500M Weekly active users and over a billion messages per day. Just ChatGPT. This is not information that requires corporate espionage. The barest minimum effort would have shown you how blatantly false you are.
What exactly is the difference between this and a LLM hallucination ?
relaxing 6 hours ago [-]
US public opinion is negative on AI. It’s also negative on Google and Meta (the rest of the top 5.)
No condescension necessary.
og_kalu 1 hours ago [-]
Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true.
US Public Opinion is negative ? Really ? How do you figure that ?
seydor 12 hours ago [-]
But why are the CEOs insisting so much on AI? Because stock investors prefer to invest on anything with "AI inside". So the "AI business model" would not collapse , because it is what investors want. It is a bubble. It will be bubbly for a while, until it isn't.
PeterStuer 12 hours ago [-]
It is not just that. Companies that already have lots of users interacting with their platform (Microsoft, Google, Meta, Apple ...) want to capture your AI interactions to generate more training data, get insights in what you want and how you go about it, and A/B test on you. Last thing they want is someone else (Anthropic, Deepseek ...) capturing all that data on their users and improve the competition.
supersparrow 12 hours ago [-]
Because it can, will and has increase productivity in a lot of fields.
Of course it’s a bubble! Most new tech like this is until it gets to a point where the market is too saturated or has been monopolised.
IshKebab 9 hours ago [-]
Yeah literally every new tech like this has literally everyone investing in it and trying lots of silly ideas. The web, mobile apps, cryptocurrencies, doesn't mean they are fundamentally useless (though cryptocurrencies have yet to make anything successful beyond Bitcoin).
I bet if you go back to the printing press, telegraph, telephone, etc. you will find people saying "it's only a bubble!".
suddenlybananas 5 hours ago [-]
I don't think people had the concept of a bubble at the time of a printing press.
leptons 48 minutes ago [-]
That whole Danish tulips thing taught us about bubbles a pretty long time ago, when the printing press was still getting popular.
suddenlybananas 15 minutes ago [-]
That happened like nearly 200 years after the printing press arrived in Europe.
slater 47 minutes ago [-]
*dutch
kldg 2 hours ago [-]
I am moderately hyped for AI, but I treat these corporate intrusions into my workflows the same as ads or age verification, pointing uBlock to elements which are easy to point-and-click block, and making quick browser plugins and Tampermonkey scripts for things like Google to intercept my web searches and redirect them from the All/AI search page. -And if I can, it does amuse me to have Gemini write the plugins to block Google ads/inconveniences.
Grimeton 1 hours ago [-]
They force more and more AI into everything so that AI can continue to learn.
Also the requests aren't answered locally. Your data is forwarded to the AI's DC, processed and the answer returned. You can be absolutely certain that they keep a copy of your data.
daishi55 9 hours ago [-]
ChatGPT is the 5th most-visited website on the planet and growing quickly. that’s one of many popular products. Hardly call that unwilling. I bet only something like 8% of Instagram users say they would pay for it. Are we to take this to mean that Instagram is an unpopular product that is rbi g forced on an unwilling public?
satyrun 8 hours ago [-]
My 75 year old father uses Claude instead of google now for basically any search function.
All the anti-AI people I know are in their 30s. I think there are many in this age group that got use to nothing changing and are wishing it to stay that way.
Paradigma11 6 hours ago [-]
A friend of mine is a 65 years old philosopher who uses it to translate ancient greek texts or generate arguments between specific philosophers.
suddenlybananas 5 hours ago [-]
I know plenty of anti-AI people who are older and younger than their 30s.
croes 4 hours ago [-]
Isn’t it fascinating how all of a sudden we swap energy saving and data protection for convenience.
We won’t solve climate change but we will have elaborate essays why we failed.
ruszki 3 hours ago [-]
Nothing changing? For people who are in their 30s? Do you mean internet, mobile phones, smart phones, Google, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Reddit were already widespread in mid 90s?
Or are they the only ones who understand that the rate of real information/(spam+disinformation+misinformation+lies) is worse than ever? And that in the past 2 years, this was thanks to AI, and people who never check what garbage AI spew out? And only they are who cares to not consume the shit? Because clearly above 50, most of them were completely fine with it for decades now. Do you say that below 30 most of the people are fine to consume garbage? I mean, seeing how many young people started to deny Holocaust, I can imagine it, but I would like some hard data, and not just some AI level guesswork.
atemerev 2 hours ago [-]
In mid-90s, people who are now in their 30s were about 5 years old.
Their formative age was from 2005 to 2015, and yes, things were staying relatively the same during this time.
ruszki 21 minutes ago [-]
Smart phones? Mobile internet? Streaming? Steam? Almost none of these were used, or very-very few people in 2005, if they existed at all. The internet of 2005 was completely different than 2015. But heck even in real life. My home country’s weather was very different in 2005 than 10 years later. Cheap flight tickets started to change our travelling pattern completely. Even my parents started to not watch TV before 2015. We had 3 TVs in 2005 in a home. In 2015 the same family had 1 in 3 different flats. And that was used rarely. Very rarely. The consumption of news changed completely.
So what are you talking about?
kemotep 9 hours ago [-]
Would you like your Facebook feed or Twitter or even Hacker News feed inserted in between your work emails or while you are shopping for clothes on a completely different website?
If you answer no, does that make you an unwilling user of social media? It’s the most visited sites in the world after all, how could randomly injecting it into your GPS navigation system be a poor fit?
esperent 9 hours ago [-]
I downloaded a Quordle game on Android yesterday. It pushes you to buy a premium subscription, and you know what that gets you? AI chat inside the game.
I'm not unwilling to use AI in places where I choose. But let's not pretend that just because people do use it in one place, they are willing to have it shoved upon them in every other place.
archargelod 9 hours ago [-]
If I want to use ChatGPT I will go and use ChatGPT myself without a middleman. I don't need every app and website to have it's own magical chat interface that is slow, undiscoverable and makes the stuff up half the time.
IshKebab 9 hours ago [-]
I actually quite like the AI-for-search use case. I can't load all of a company's support documents and manuals into ChatGPT easily; if they've done that for me, great!
It has some kind of ChatGPT integration, and I tried it and it found the answer I was looking for straight away, after 10 minutes of googling and manual searching had failed.
Seems to be not working at the moment though :-/
nonplus 8 hours ago [-]
I do think Facebook and Instagram are forced on the public if they want to fully interact with their peers.
I just don't participate in discussions about Facebook marketplace links friends share, or Instagram reels my D&D groups post.
So in a sense I agree with you, forcing AI into products is similar to forcing advertising into products.
anon7000 4 hours ago [-]
Agreed. My mother and aunts are using ChatGPT all the time. It has really massive market penetration in a way I (a software engineer and AI skeptic/“realist”) didn’t realize. Now, do they care about meta’s AI? Idk, but they’re definitely using AI a lot
croes 4 hours ago [-]
It’s popular by scammers too.
I wonder how many uses of Chatgpt and such are malicious.
arnaudsm 4 hours ago [-]
Remembering the failure of Google+, I wonder if hostilely forcing a product to your users makes it less likely to succeed.
mat_b 4 hours ago [-]
Google Buzz is a better example
ryandrake 15 minutes ago [-]
Google+ is a great example, because there was a very similar mindless push to integrate it into all of their products, by any means necessary. And then, when it fizzled, there was the inevitable engineering effort to rip it all out. I predict in a few years, when the AI fad has subsided, there will be a similar amount of engineering effort undertaken at all of these companies to pull out and sunset these expensive AI integrations...
throwawayoldie 2 hours ago [-]
Was it that one or Google Wave that was supposed to become the dominant form of communication within 5 years? I don't remember much about either one.
smileysteve 2 hours ago [-]
Google Wave is tangential to slack, discord, Facebook groups, and Whatsapp communities, arguably reddit communities...
So they may have been on to something
tim333 3 hours ago [-]
It's annoying having AI features force fed I imagine but it's come about due to many of the public liking some AI - apparently ChatGPT now has 800 million weekly users (https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2025/05/chatgpt-stat...) and then competing companies think they should try to keep up.
I say I imagine it's annoying because I've yet to actually be annoyed much but I get the idea. I actually quite like the Google AI bit - you can always not read it if you don't want to. AI generated content on youtube is a bit of a mixed bag - it tends to be kinda bad but you can click stop and play another video. My office 2019 is gloriously out of date and does that stuff I want without the recent nonsense.
waswaswas 3 hours ago [-]
I hate the Google AI Overview. More of my knowledge-seeking searches than not are things that have a consequential, singular correct answer. It's hard to break the habit of reading the search AI response first, it feeling not quite right, remembering that I can't actually trust it, then skipping down to pull up a page with the actual answer. Involuntary injection of needless confusion and mental effort with every query. If I wanted a vibe-answer, I'd ask ChatGPT with my plus subscription instead of Google, because at least then I get a proper model instead of whatever junk is cheap enough for Google to auto-run on every query without a subscription.
And of course there's no way to disable it without also losing calculator, unit conversions, and other useful functionality.
timewizard 2 hours ago [-]
In two months they've doubled MAUs? Without an explanation of that specific outcome I don't believe it.
Also:
> As per SimilarWeb data 61.05% of ChatGPT's traffic comes from YouTube, which means from all the social media platforms YouTube viewers are the largest referral source of its user base,
That's deeply suspect.
blablabla123 11 hours ago [-]
I looked for the right term but force-feeding is what it is. I yesterday also changed my default search engine from Duckduckgo to Ecosia as they seem the only one left not to provide flaky AI summaries.
In fact I also tried the communication part - outside of Outlook - but people don't like superficial AI polish
dijksterhuis 9 hours ago [-]
FWIW noai.duckduckgo.com is a thing
mattdutra321 8 hours ago [-]
You can also just scroll down
JoshTriplett 11 hours ago [-]
You can completely turn off the AI summaries in DDG.
currently run duckduck, but dont get the summeraries as my phone browser sets individual domain conditions, and duck duck will return results without having java,cookies,dom enabled
lukaslevert 11 hours ago [-]
Dunno about DDG but on Brave Search you can turn off the AI summaries if you prefer not to have them. Disclosure: I work at Brave.
Gigachad 9 hours ago [-]
Yep, seems like every product is cramming in their forced slop everywhere begging you to use their new AI they spent so much on.
blindriver 5 hours ago [-]
Even worse: they are using your data that you are inputting into these programs to continuously train their data. That’s an even bigger violation since it breaches data privacy.
__MatrixMan__ 3 hours ago [-]
I wish there was a checkbox that controlled this. 5% of the time I need the privacy, 95% of the time I'm tired of correcting the AI in the same way that I corrected it yesterday and I would happily take a little extra time out of my day to teach them to stop repeatedly making the same mistakes.
The top of the list has got to be that one of their testimonials presented to investors is from "DrDeflowerMe". It's also interesting to me because they list financials which position them as unbelievably tiny: 6,215 subscribing accounts, 400 average new accounts per month, which to me sounds like they have a lot of churn.
I'm in my third year of subscribing and I'm actively looking for a replacement. This "Start Engine" investment makes me even more confident that's the right decision. Over the years I've paid nearly $200/year for this and watched them fail to deliver basic functionality. They just don't have the team to deliver AI tooling. For example: 2 years ago I spoke with support about the screen that shows you your credit card numbers being nearly unreadable (very light grey numbers on a white background), which still isn't fixed. Around a year ago a bunch of my auto transfers disappeared, causing me hundreds of dollars in late fees. I contacted support and they eventually "recovered" all the missing auto-transfers, but it ended up with some of them doubled up, and support stopped responding when I asked them to fix that.
I question if they'll be able to implement the changes they want, let alone be able to support those features if they do.
djrj477dhsnv 4 hours ago [-]
Your personal bank has 6,215 customers? How could they possibly cover the costs of even 1 employee?
kesor 7 hours ago [-]
Companies didn't ask your opinion when they offshore manufacturing to Asia. They didn't ask your opinion when they offshore support to call centers in Asia. Companies don't ask your opinion, they do what they think is best for their financial interest, and that is how capitalism works.
Once upon a time, not too long ago, there was someone who would bag your groceries, and someone who would clean your window at the gas station. Now you do self-checkout. Has anyone asked for this? Your quality of life is worse, the companies are automating away humanity into something they think is more profitable for them.
In a society where you don't have government protection for such companies, there would be other companies who provide a better service whose competition would win. But when you have a fat corrupt government, lobbying makes sense, and crony-capitalism births monopolies which cannot have any competition. Then they do whatever they want to you and society at large, and they don't owe you, you owe them. Your tax dollars sponsor all of this even more than your direct payments do.
jappgar 3 hours ago [-]
You're right but the knee-jerk response to this realization is to cut taxes and starve the government of its only legitimate fundraising mechanism.
While government sponsored monopolies certainly exist, monopolies themselves are a natural outcome of competition.
Deregulation would break some monopolies while encouraging others to grow. The new monopolies may be far worse than the ones we had before.
miohtama 7 hours ago [-]
New Jersey gas stations still do this, and here is napkin cost calculation
Just a bizarre pedantry that isn't even true-- he said clean your windows, not pump your gas.
Workaccount2 5 hours ago [-]
As far as I can tell, the AI-hate is most prominent in tech circles (creativity too, but they don't like media generation, largely embrace text though).
It seems here on the ground in non-tech bubble land, people use ChatGPT a ton and lean hard on AI features.
When Google judges the success of bolted on AI, they are looking at how Jane and John General Public use it, not how xleet007 uses it(or doesn't).
There is also the fact that AI is still just being bolted onto things now. The next iteration of this software will be AI native, and the revisions after that will iron out big wrinkles.
When settings menus and ribbon panels are optional because you can just tell the program what to do in plain English, that will be AI integration.
bgwalter 5 hours ago [-]
The article has 877 likes (on its own page, not here). I think most of those are not technical.
Marsha Blackburn's amendment to remove the "AI legislation moratorium" from the "Big Beautiful Bill" passed the Senate 99-1.
People are getting really fed up with "AI", "crypto" and other scams.
windows2020 5 hours ago [-]
Without menus and ribbon panels, how do you discover the capabilities of the software?
Workaccount2 5 hours ago [-]
If engineers could, they would put settings and ribbon panels on people...
throwawayoldie 2 hours ago [-]
Reading the fine manual?
dingnuts 5 hours ago [-]
Ok but TFA says only 8% of REGULAR PEOPLE want these features so if you're going to directly contradict the source material we all just read (right???) you should bring a citation because otherwise, in light of the data in the article you are ostensibly discussing, I don't know how that's "as far as you can tell."
mike_hearn 4 hours ago [-]
It doesn't say that. The actual question asked was whether people would pay extra for AI features, which isn't the same thing as asking if they want them.
If you look at the survey results, a few things jump out.
Firstly, there's a strong age skew. The people most likely to benefit from AI features in their software are those who are judged directly on their computing productivity, i.e. the young. Around half of 18-35 year olds say they would pay extra, even . It's only amongst the old that this drops to 20%.
Secondly, when asked directly if they value a range of AI-driven features, they say yes.
The skew opens up because companies like OpenAI give AI services away for free. There's just a really strong expectation established by the tech industry that software is either free or paid for by a low and very price-stable monthly subscription. This is also true in AI: you only pay for ChatGPT if you want more features and smarter models. For the majority of things that people are doing with AI right now, the free version of ChatGPT is good enough. What remains is mostly low value stuff like better autocomplete, where indeed people are probably not that interested in paying more for it.
Unfortunately Ted Gioia tries to use this stat to imply people don't want AI at all, which is not only untrue but trivially untrue; ChatGPT is the fastest growing product in history.
SoftTalker 3 hours ago [-]
I pay for a subscription to a local news blog (because our local newspaper no longer covers local news). I would not pay for the same content delivered by AI. Does the blogger use AI to write his stories? I trust him when he says he does not but I guess I have no way to know for sure.
I will pay people for the value they create. I won't pay for AI content, or AI integrations. They are not interesting or valuable to me.
adastra22 12 hours ago [-]
> Before proceeding let me ask a simple question: Has there ever been a major innovation that helped society, but only 8% of the public would pay for it?
Highways.
cosmical65 12 hours ago [-]
> Highways.
In my European country you have to pay a toll to use a highway. Most people opt to use them, instead of taking the old 2-lane road that existed before the highway and is still free.
AtariATMHacker 12 hours ago [-]
[dead]
seydor 12 hours ago [-]
pretty much the whole population pays taxes
adastra22 4 hours ago [-]
Would most of the population pay taxes, if taxes were optional?
bilbo0s 7 hours ago [-]
To be fair..
pretty much the whole population also wants tax cuts.
It's kind of insane out there in tax land.
ciconia 4 hours ago [-]
"Any sufficiently advanced AI technology is indistinguishable from bullshit."
- me, a few years ago.
I find the whole situation with regard to AI utterly ridiculous and boring. While those algos might have some interesting applications, they're not as earth-shattering as we are made to believe, and their utility is, to me at least, questionable.
bwfan123 3 hours ago [-]
> Any sufficiently advanced AI technology is indistinguishable from bullshit
love this quote !
The whole sales-pitch for AI is predicated on FOMO - from developers being replaced by AI-enabled engineers to countries being left-behind by AI-slop. Like crypto, the idea is to get-big-fast, and become too big to fail. This worked for social-media but I find it hard to believe it can work for AI.
My hope is that: while some of the people can be fooled all the time, all the people cannot be fooled all the time.
gchamonlive 8 hours ago [-]
But that's exactly the problem with proprietary software. It's not force-feeding you anything, it's working exactly as intended.
Software is loyal to the owner. If you don't own your software, software won't be loyal to you. It can be convenient for you, but as time passes and interest changes, if you don't own software it can turn against you. And you shouldn't blame Microsoft or it's utilities. It doesn't owe you anything just because you put effort in it and invested time in it. It'll work according to who it's loyal to, who owns it.
If it bothers you, choose software you can own. If you can't choose software you own now, change your life so you can in the future. And if you just can't, you have to accept the consequences.
ataru 12 hours ago [-]
I noticed that some of his choices contributed to his problem. I haven't been forced into accepting AI (so far) while I've been using duckduckgo for search, libreoffice, protonmail, and linux.
hambes 9 hours ago [-]
even ddg has integrated AI now and while it can be disabled, the privacy aspect seems to mean that ddg regularily forgets my settings and re-enables the ai features.
maybe i'm doing something wrong here, but even ddg is annoying me with this.
yunwal 7 hours ago [-]
I agree it’s annoying that the setting seem to change all the time, but you can use noai.duckduckgo.com
yegg 5 hours ago [-]
The settings don’t change, but they are stored in anonymous local storage, so if that is cleared they go away. If you use our browsers though this is managed through the browser.
jaimefjorge 11 hours ago [-]
I feel an urge to build personal local AI bots that would be personal spam filters. AI filtering AI, fight fire with fire. Mostly because the world OP wants is never coming back. Everything will be AI and it's everywhere.
I also feel an urge to build spaces in the internet just for humans, with some 'turrets' to protect against AI invasion and exploitation. I just don't know what content would be shared in those spaces because AI is already everywhere in content production.
frankzander 9 hours ago [-]
This already exists around 20 years ago and didn't consume as much resources as an AI bot would ... Bayesian-Filters.
Avamander 4 hours ago [-]
Those can be useful, but not really against LLM content. Though neither do I think an LLM-based filter could actually reliably detect LLM-based content.
daft_pink 13 hours ago [-]
The issue really is that the AI isn’t good enough that people actually want it and are willing to pay for it.
It’s like IPV6, if it really was a huge benefit to the end user, we’d have adopted it already.
ethan_smith 8 hours ago [-]
IPv6 adoption is actually limited by network effect and infrastructure transition costs, not lack of end-user benefits - unlike AI, which faces a value perception problem.
brookst 8 hours ago [-]
ChatGPT has more than 500m DAU, three years after creation. Is that really a value perception problem?
nonplus 7 hours ago [-]
That value (of one company) is from speculative investment. I don't think it negates that the field has a perception problem.
After seeing something like blockchain run completely afoul/used for the wrong things and embraced by the public for it, I at least agree that AI has a value perception problem.
brookst 5 hours ago [-]
How does speculative investment get 500m DAU?
bitwize 2 hours ago [-]
I dunno, how did Juicero get $120m?
ryandrake 13 minutes ago [-]
Exactly. It is possible for a metric like DAUs to come almost entirely from marketing saturation, heavy promotion, and hype, and not from actual utility to the user. I'm not sure that's the case in particular for ChatGPT but I wouldn't be surprised.
immibis 12 hours ago [-]
End users don't choose ipv6 or not - ISPs do
NitpickLawyer 12 hours ago [-]
> isn’t good enough that people actually want it and are willing to pay for it.
Just from current ARR announcements: 3b+ anthropic, 10b+ oai, whatever google makes, whatever ms makes, yeah people are already paying for it.
meheleventyone 12 hours ago [-]
Given everyone and their mother is putting AI in to their products it makes me wonder how that revenue breaks down between people incidentally paying for it versus deliberately paying for it versus being subsidized by VC. Obviously ultimately all this revenue is being collected at a massive loss but I wonder if that carries on down the value chain.
squidbeak 11 hours ago [-]
Amusing the way the argument shifts every time. This one's new though.
"If it was any good, people would pay for it."
"The data shows people are paying for it."
"Aah but they don't know they're paying for it."
meheleventyone 11 hours ago [-]
I don’t think I’m trying to make that argument but thanks for putting it in my mouth. I do pay (or via employment get paid access) for a lot of products that have AI features that I don’t care about so from personal experience I know that at least some of the value chain is incidental.
watwut 10 hours ago [-]
They have been multiple crashed again and again due to people bot actually paying.
And VC investments are distorting markets - unprofitable companies kill profitable ones before crashing.
supersparrow 12 hours ago [-]
Huh? I’ve been programming for 20 years now and LLMs/GenAI have replaced search and StackOverflow for me - I’d say that means they are pretty good! They are not perfect, not even close, but they are excellent when used as an assistant and when you know the result you’re expecting and can spot its obvious errors.
m000 13 hours ago [-]
I mostly agree with TFA, with one glaring exception: The quality of Google search results has regressed so badly in the past years (played by SEO experts), that AI was actually a welcome improvement.
tossandthrow 12 hours ago [-]
I think it was just Google that got bad.
I use Kagi who returns excellent results, also when I need non AI verbatim queries.
otabdeveloper4 12 hours ago [-]
It didn't get bad for no reason.
It needs to be bad for ads to continue to be profitable.
Displaying what you searched for immediately is cannibalizing that market.
I'm guessing ads in AI results is the logical next step.
sillyfluke 10 hours ago [-]
Yes, that's the next logical step. The only silverlining is Google currently has less of a moat than last time in the technology in question, so some upstart could always be on their heels in a Kagi-esque way.
Nursie 7 hours ago [-]
LOL. I’ll take declining relevancy over (in order of badness) AI results that -
Badly summarise articles.
Outright invent local attractions that don’t exist.
Gave subtly wrong, misleading advice about employment rights.
All while coming across as confidently authoritative.
iLoveOncall 10 hours ago [-]
User issue. Every single time this comes up.
People don't know how to search, that's it. Even the HN population.
Every time this gets posted, I ask for one example of thing you tried to find and what keywords you used. So I'm giving you the same offer, give me for one thing you couldn't find easily on Google and the keywords you used, and I'll show you Google search is just fine.
mittensc 10 hours ago [-]
Allright, had this recently since i keep forgetting luks commands.
How do you set up an encrypted file on linux that can be mounted and accessed same as a hard drive.
(note: luks, a few commands)
You will see a nonsensical ai summarization, lots of videos and junk websites being promoted then you'll likely find a few blogs with the actual commands needed. Nowhere is there a link to a manual for luks or similar.
This in the past had the no-ad straightforward blogs as first links, then some man pages, then other unrelated things for the same searches that i do now and get garbage.
gjm11 9 hours ago [-]
FWIW, when I put <<linux create file image encrypted file system>> into Google (this was the first thing I tried, though without knowledge that it might be a tricky case I might have been less careful picking keywords) I get what look like plausible results.
At the top there's a "featured snippet" from opensource.com, allegedly from 2021, that begins with: create an empty file (this turns out to mean a file of given size with no useful data in it, not a size-0 file), then make a LUKS volume using cryptsetup, etc.
First actual search result is a question on Ask Ubuntu (the Stack Exchange site dedicated to Ubuntu) headed "How do I create an encrypted filesystem inside a file?" which unless I'm confused is at least the correct question. Top answer there (from 2017) looks plausible and seems to be describing the same steps as the "featured snippet". A couple of other links to Ask Ubuntu are given below that one but they seem worse.
Next search result is a Reddit thread that describes how to do something different but possibly still of interest to someone who wants to do the thing you describe.
Next search result is a question on unix.stackexchange.com that turns out to be about something different; under it are other results from the same site, the first of which has a cryptsetup-based recipe that seems similar to the other plausible ones mentioned above.
Further search results continue to have a good density of plausible-looking answers to essentially the intended question.
This all seems fairly satisfactory assuming the specific answers don't turn out to be garbage, which doesn't look very likely; it seems like Google has done a decent job here. It doesn't specifically turn up the LUKS manual, but then that wasn't the question you actually asked.
Having done that search to find that the relevant command seems to be cryptsetup and the underlying facility is called LUKS, searches for <<cryptsetup manual>> and <<luks documentation>> (again, the first search terms that came to mind) look to me like they find the right things.
(Google isn't my first-choice search engine at present; DuckDuckGo provides similar results in all these cases.)
I am not taking any sides on the broader question of whether in general Google can give good search results if one picks the right words for it, but in this particular case it seems OK.
nosianu 9 hours ago [-]
I asked Google that exact question, and I got an AI summary that looks alright? Please verify if those steps make sense, I pasted them into a text service, it's too much for an HN comment: https://justpaste.it/63eiz
It shoed 25 or so URLs as the source.
multjoy 9 hours ago [-]
That wasn't the question. The complaint is the poster can't find anything on Google because the results are now so poor, and your response is "but here's some AI generated slop, which may or may not make any sense."
nosianu 5 hours ago [-]
That was exactly the question???
That "AI generated slop" IS Google's main response now. I posted it so that someone might have a look to see if/how correct it actually is, your response, that does not deign to even look, is less than helpful - if you want to complain about Google not being useful, how about your own response?
multjoy 56 minutes ago [-]
A human didn't write it, I'm not reading it.
hambes 10 hours ago [-]
Is "How do you set up an encrypted file on linux that can be mounted and accessed same as a hard drive." literally what you put into the search bar? if so, that's the problem.
try "mount luks encrypted file" or "luks file mount". too many words and any grammar at all will degrade your results. it's all about keywords
edit: after trying it myself i quickly realized the problem - luks related articles are usually about drives or partitions, not about files. this search got me what i wanted: "luks mount file -partition -filesystem"
i found this article[1], which is in german (my native tongue), but contained the right information.
Google hasn't really worked like you imagine for a decade.
hambes 5 hours ago [-]
then why did my keyword-based approach work better than the natural language approach?
Octoth0rpe 9 hours ago [-]
Your version assumes that the user knows that luks exists in the first place, OP's does not.
hambes 5 hours ago [-]
OP specifically said they were looking for luks commands.
brookst 8 hours ago [-]
Google is nearly useless for recipes. Try finding a recipe for beef bourguignon. They exist, but with huge prefaces and elaboration that mean endless scrolling on a phone, all in the name of maximizing time spent on page (which is a search ranking criteria).
CoastalCoder 7 hours ago [-]
I've also heard a 3rd-hand claims that not authors of those recipes vett what they've written. E.g., what the true prep / cooking times are.
I still find online recipes convenient, but I don't blindly trust details like cooking time and temperature. (I mean, those things are always subject to variability, but now I don't trust the times to even be in the right ballpark.)
Happily, there are some cooks that I think deserve our trust, e.g. Chef John.
habosa 6 hours ago [-]
And on an unwilling workforce. Everyone I know is being made to drop what they were working on a year ago and stuff AI into everything.
Some are excited about it. Some are actually making something cool with AI. Very few are both.
llm_nerd 3 hours ago [-]
As a note on Microsoft's obnoxious Copilot push, I too got the "Your 365 subscription price is increasing because we're forcing AI on you".
Only when I went to cancel[1], suddenly they made me aware that there was a "classic" subscription that was the normal price, without CoPilot. So they basically just upsized everyone to try to force uptake.
[1] - I'm in the AI business and am a user and abuser of AI daily, but I don't need it built directly into every app. I Already have AI subscriptions and local models and solutions.
ozgrakkurt 1 hours ago [-]
This rapist mentality pricing is really off putting.
Recently I tried to cancel notion account of some people in our org and it wouldn’t let me do it easily so just cancelled the whole notion subscription, really wish they would go out of business for doing these kind of things
justinclift 9 hours ago [-]
So, are there any EU citizens around who are willing to create and run the needed European Citizens' Initiative to get this ball rolling? :)
As a data point, the "Stop Killing Games" one has passed the needed 1M signatures so is in good shape:
The point is that thinking number of signatures is a victory is naive.
You can't use this as an example of success until you actually achieve something.
bithead 4 hours ago [-]
If people are stupid to fall for the subscribe model, they likely need AI.
pacifika 12 hours ago [-]
I think there’s a difference between the tool that helps you do work better and the service that generates the end result.
People would be less upset if ai is shown to support the person. This also allows that person to curate the output and ignore it if needed before sharing it, so it’s a win/win.
But is the big money in revolution?
smitty1e 10 hours ago [-]
Excellent Frank Zappa reference in The Famous Article is "I'm the Slime"[1].
The thing that really chafes me about this AI, irrespective of whether it is awesome or not, is emitting all of the information to some unknown server. To go with another Zappa reference, AI becomes The Central Scrutinizer[2].
I predict an increasing use of Free Software by discerning people who want to maintain more control of their information.
Are you not concerned that force-feeding might be unduly disparaged by your comparison?
iambateman 7 hours ago [-]
Just a quick quibble…the subtitle of the article calls this problem tyranny.
Tyranny is a real thing which exists in the world and is not exemplified by “product manager adding text expansion to word processor.”
The natural state of capitalism is trying things which get voted on by money. It’s always subject to boom-bust cycles and we are in a big boom. This will eventually correct itself once the public makes its position clear and the features which truly suck will get fixed or removed.
throwawayoldie 2 hours ago [-]
> The natural state of capitalism is trying things which get voted on by money
That is what the natural state of capitalism _would_ be in a world of honest businesspeople and politicians.
garyclarke27 10 hours ago [-]
I agree copilot for answering emails is negative value.
But I find Google AI search results are very useful, can't see how they will monetise this, but can't complain for now.
bethekidyouwant 5 hours ago [-]
You guys are lying if you don’t use ChatGPT instead of Google now
drudolph914 5 hours ago [-]
I think a lot of people are flipping back to google. google AI mode is pretty good and better than what ever free tier openAI offers
Disposal8433 4 hours ago [-]
I use neither LLMs nor Google. What is your point all about?
rimbo789 5 hours ago [-]
I honestly can’t think of reasons to use AI. At work I have to give myself reminders to show my bosses that I used the internal ai tool so I don’t get in shit.
I don’t see the utility, all I see is slop and constant notifications in google.
You can say skill issue but that’s kind of the point; this was all dropped on me by people who don’t understand it themselves. I didn’t ask or want to built the skills to understand ai. Nor did my bosses: they are just following the latest wave. We are the blind leading the blind.
Like crypto ai will prove to be a dead end mistake that only enabled grifters
SpicyLemonZest 4 hours ago [-]
One recent thing I did was make cute little illustrations for an internal slide deck. I’m not even taking work away from an artist, there was no universe where I would have paid someone to do this, but now every presentation I give can be much more visually engaging than they would have been previously.
The reason your bosses are being obnoxious about making people use the internal AI tool is to push them into thinking about things like this. Perhaps at your company it’s genuinely not useful, but I’ve seen a lot of people say that who I’m pretty confident are wrong.
Peritract 2 hours ago [-]
> now every presentation I give can be much more visually engaging than they would have been previously
What about the impact on your audience? A lot of people are going to view your presentations more negatively based on their views about AI.
metalman 4 hours ago [-]
the title can be shortened to "force feeding an unwilling public" which is a fairly reasonable description of our current econimic system.
we went from "supply and demand", to "we can supply demand"(the heydays of hype and advertising), to "surprise!, like it or lump it"
123yawaworht456 12 hours ago [-]
I assume you've been happy with the other slop Microsoft and Google fed you for years.
Bluestein 12 hours ago [-]
"Shut up, buddy, and chew on your rock."
cs702 8 hours ago [-]
Your may agree or disagree with the OP, but this passage is spot-on:
"I don’t want AI customer service—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI responses to my Google searches—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI integrated into my software—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI sending me emails—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI music on Spotify—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI books on Amazon—but I don’t get a choice."
brookst 8 hours ago [-]
It’s not spot on. Buying and using all of these products is a choice.
The last is especially egregious. I don’t want poorly-written (by my standards) books cluttering up bookstores, but all my life I’ve walked into bookstores and found my favorite genres have lots of books I’m not interested in. Do I have some kind of right to have stores only stock products that I want?
The whole thing is just so damn entitled. If you don’t like something, don’t buy it. If you find the presence of some products offensive in a marketplace, don’t shop there. Spotify is not a human right.
Of course you can opt out. People live in the backwoods of Alaska. But if you want to live a semi normal life there is no option. And absolutely people should feel entitled to a normal life.
t0bia_s 6 hours ago [-]
Normal life means collectivism and conformity behaviour?
marcosdumay 4 hours ago [-]
Do you have a definition of "normal" that doesn't refer to a collective?
t0bia_s 4 hours ago [-]
Then I prefer non-normal with freedom of choose.
cs702 7 hours ago [-]
ROFL. Thank you for sharing that link!
AstroBen 7 hours ago [-]
If these things are genuinely so universally hated won't they just be.. capitalism'd out of existence? People will stop engaging with them and better products will win
What book store will stock AI slop that no-one wants to buy?
jzb 6 hours ago [-]
No, because “better products” won’t exist. That’s the complaint: every company is rushing to throw AI into their stuff, and/or use it to replace humans.
They’re not trying to satisfy customers: they’re answering shareholders. Our system is no longer about offering the best products, it’s about having the market share to force people to do business with you or maybe two other equally bad companies that constantly look for ways to extract more money from people to make shareholders happy. See: Two choices of smartphone OS, ISP regional monopolies or duopolies, two consumer OSes, a handful of mobile carriers, almost all available TVs models being “smart TVs” laden with spyware…
(I’m speaking from the US perspective, this may not be as pronounced elsewhere.)
brookst 5 hours ago [-]
That’s a very self-centered view that assumes one’s own definition of “better products” is universal.
The reality is that most people like many of the things you or I might find useless or annoying.
There are better products, but they are niche. You pay more for a non-smart TV because 1) there’s less demand, and 2) the business model is different and requires full payment up front rather than long term monetization.
But who are you or I to look at the market and declare that both sellers and buyers are wrong about what they want? I’m very suspicious of any position as paternalistic as that.
AstroBen 6 hours ago [-]
> it’s about having the market share to force people to do business with you
Outside of a monopoly the best way to extract more money from people is to offer a better product. If AI is being forced and people do hate it, they'll move towards products that don't do that
What happened to Windows Recall being enabled by default? Surely it was in Microsoft's best interest to force it on people. But no, they reversed it after a huge backlash. You see this again and again
Of your examples, ISPs are the only one I can see that's hated without other options. Most people are quite happy with Windows/Mac/Android/iOS/Mint Mobile/Smart-TV-With-No-Internet-Access
rincebrain 7 hours ago [-]
Part of the problem is that some of these services have enormous upfront costs to work at all.
It's fun to say "let's go write a complete replacement for Microsoft Office" or the Adobe suite or what have you, but that has a truly astonishing upfront cost to get to a point where it's even servicing 50% of the use cases, let alone 95 or 99%.
Or there's other examples where it's not obvious there's sufficient interest to finance an alternative - how many people are going to pay for something that replicates solely the old functionality of Microsoft Paint or Notepad, for example.
AstroBen 6 hours ago [-]
What would happen if Microsoft Office started to charge $250/mo tomorrow?
My guess is you'd very quickly get a bunch of teams scrambling to produce something to compete and capture a huge market by charging a tenth the price. Funding is taken care of when winning there is worth so much
Maybe it won't happen overnight because they're huge software suites.. but it will happen. We need regulations to take care of anti-competitive practices - but after that the market seems to work pretty well for keeping companies in check
jeauxlb 6 hours ago [-]
You might be conflating capitalism (owning things like factories) with consumerism (buying things like widgets).
If all of the factory owners discover a type of widget to sell that can incidentally drive down wages the more units they move, it's unlikely for consumers to be provided much choice in their future widgets.
AstroBen 6 hours ago [-]
The lowest cost (either purchase price, or to produce) products don't create a monopoly
$30 blenders that break in 3 months haven't bankrupted Vitamix
jeauxlb 5 hours ago [-]
Search, music streaming, books: heavily consolidated markets where the value-based offering has supremacy (Google vs any paid search; Spotify/Apple Music vs Tidal; Amazon vs anything). It's the market supremacy that generally allows this.
If quality were a sufficiently motivating aspect, Google's deteriorating search wouldn't be a constant theme on this site, and people on the street would know where to download and play a FLAC file.
brookst 5 hours ago [-]
Tidal is a great example. They seem do be doing fine with a niche. If more people wanted what they offer instead of Spotify, Tidal would eat market share.
AstroBen 4 hours ago [-]
The market supremacy came afterwards, not before. Most people don't want the expensive premium version - they want good enough at a low investment. And that's fine
There's also a segment of the market that wants the FLAC, premium handcrafted experiences at top price. They're not in direct competition and both can co-exist
My initial point was that companies can't just exploit consumers relentlessly because the market won't let them. The good value option can't just box people in and show them only ads. I bet YouTube would love to show you unskippable ads for 75% of the video length. Good luck staying market leader with that
I don't think Google is a good example here. They've been actively trying to fight and failing against SEO and affiliate spam for a decade. No-one else has solved that problem either which is why Google remains at the top. I personally had a hand-crafted content site thrown out of their search results because of them going after spam
babymetal 7 hours ago [-]
I'm a bookseller who often uses Ingram to buy books wholesale when I'm not buying direct from publishers. I've used them for their distribution service since opening 5 years ago because they are the only folks in town who can help bootstrap a very small business with coverage of all the major publishers (in the U.S.). They're great at that, for a small cut in revenue.
Six-plus months ago they put a chatbot in the bottom right corner of their website that literally covers up buttons I use all the time for ordering, so that I have to scroll now in order to access those controls (Chrome, MacOS). After testing it with various queries it only seems to provide answers to questions in their pre-existing support documentation.
This is not about choice (see above, they are the only game in town), and it is not about entitlement (we're a tiny shop trying to serve our customers' often obscure book requests). They seemed to literally place the chatbot buttons onto their website with no polling of their users. This is an anecdotal report about Ingram specifically.
brookst 4 hours ago [-]
Is it specific to AI or have they made other bad UI choices over the years?
babymetal 2 hours ago [-]
Very recently their "advanced search" page was redone with a totally different and slightly more modern styling (prior to addition of the chat expert overlaid in the corner). The rest of Ingram's ordering site is still the same as five years ago and is clearly older than that.
That's objective; subjectively, it feels like there are individuals who were given the ability to "try new stuff" and "break things" who chose to follow the hype around features that look like this. The chat button seems to me to be an exercise in following-the-herd which actually sucks for me as a user with it blocking my old buttons.
arexxbifs 6 hours ago [-]
Opting out is easy, we can just stop using products from Microsoft, Apple, Meta and Google. Of course, for many that also means opting out of their job, which is a great way to opt out of a home, a family, healthcare, dental care and luxuries like food.
I don't think it's entitlement to make a well-mannered complaint about how little choice we actually have when it comes to the whims of the tech giants.
cs702 7 hours ago [-]
> If you don’t like something, don’t buy it.
The OP's point is that increasingly, we don't have that choice, for example, because AI slop masquerades as if it were authored by human beings (that's, in fact, its purpose!), or because the software applications you rely on suddenly start pushing "AI companions" on you, whether you want them or not, or because you have no viable alternatives to the software applications you use, so you must put up with those "AI companions," whether you want them in your life or not.
mafuy 7 hours ago [-]
AI shit is usually not advertising as such. It's made to look like it was made a human. So I would have to consider this product carefully beforehand, or to return it after buying. That's a hassle. I don't want to spend productive time on this nonsense. For all I care, say it hurts the GDP.
prng2021 7 hours ago [-]
How is this hard to understand? You’re completely missing the point. You’re basically saying if you get a spam text, don’t read it. If you get spam email, don’t read it. If you see an ad modal popup on a website, close it. It’s all still super annoying just like these AI features screaming “use me! click me! type to me!” all over the place in the UI.
brookst 4 hours ago [-]
There is a huge difference between unwanted messages and a commercial service changing their offering in ways you don’t like. It is literally the definition of entitlement to conflate the two.
fnordpiglet 8 hours ago [-]
I actually use the AI books that litter kindle unlimited to teach my daughter how to differentiate and be more sophisticated. I think a feature of all this is it inculcates a lot of people to AI spew. If it were isolated to the elite and the unscrupulous alone people would be a lot more vulnerable. By saturating the world with it, people get a true choice by being able to recognize it when they see it and avoid the output. It’s not like all our surfaces are not covered in enshittification as it is, another dose of it won’t make it meaningfully worse. And I know a lot of non English speakers that really appreciate the AI writing assistants built into email, the ai summaries built into search. Assuming no one finds them beneficial because it litters an already littered experience is a bit close minded. Many people otherwise challenged in some way. Summaries help dyslexics get through otherwise intractable walls of text, multi modal glasses help the vision impaired, witting assistants help bilingual workers level the playing field. Just because these don’t apply to you doesn’t mean it’s bothersome. (Now should you be able to disable it? Maybe, but as the author points out that’s a product choice made for financial reasons and there’s a market of products that make a different choice - don’t like google? Don’t feel so entitled that every service be free and pay for kagi)
Probably no one enjoys AI books though. I did my best at devils advocate on that above.
t0bia_s 6 hours ago [-]
- Summaries help dyslexics get through otherwise intractable walls of text.
Politicians often use AI to summarise proposals and amendments to the laws. And later vote based on those summaries. It's incredible how artifical bureaucracy is driven by artifical intelligence. And how citizens don't care to follow artificial laws that ruins humanity.
jmull 3 hours ago [-]
You really think we should all either happily accept AI-generated emails or opt out of having an email address at all?
conartist6 5 hours ago [-]
Did you even read the post?
The whole point is that "just don't buy it" as a strategy doesn't work anymore for consumers to guide the market when the companies have employed the rock-for-dessert gambit to avoid having to try to sell their products on their merits.
ikr678 8 hours ago [-]
For consumer pproducts, sure, don't buy them. For people in office based careers, they may not get a choice when their company rolls out copilot, or management decide to buy an ai helpdesk agent, or a vendor pushes ai slop into the next enterprise software version.
brookst 8 hours ago [-]
How is that different from not liking other technology choices one’s employer makes? I could write a book about how much I hate our expense tool. But it’s never occurred to me that I am entitled to have a different one.
NilMostChill 7 hours ago [-]
Entitled, probably not, able to communicate frustrations and suggest alternative options, absolutely.
queenkjuul 6 hours ago [-]
You should consider that yes, maybe you are entitled to a better one
xdennis 7 hours ago [-]
> I don’t want poorly-written (by my standards) books cluttering up bookstores
It's ridiculous to compare bad human books with bad AI books because there many human books which are life-changing, but there isn't a single AI book which isn't trash.
computerthings 7 hours ago [-]
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amelius 8 hours ago [-]
There are plenty of non AI books on Amazon.
5 hours ago [-]
varelse 5 hours ago [-]
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iluvfossilfuels 6 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kotaKat 9 hours ago [-]
It’s not force-feeding. It’s rape and assault.
I said no. Respect my preferences.
amadeuspagel 11 hours ago [-]
This guy calls himself honest broker but his articles are just expressions of status anxiety. The kind of media the he loves to write about is becoming less relevant and so he lashes out at everything new from AI to TikTok.
doug_durham 12 hours ago [-]
Why do people who attempt to critique AI lean on the "no one wants this, everyone hates this" instead of just making their point. If your arguments are strong you don't need to wrap them in false statistics.
otabdeveloper4 12 hours ago [-]
> no one wants this, everyone hates this
Is not false statistics. "Nobody wanted or asked for this" is literally true.
jstanley 12 hours ago [-]
Proof by counterexample: I want this.
phito 12 hours ago [-]
You probably want the version of it they sold you in the advertising. Or are you actually happy with the slop they're currently shipping?
SpicyLemonZest 4 hours ago [-]
The article leads with a feature to get AI to write your emails for you. I personally don’t have much use for that, since I like writing and I’m pretty fast at it, but I know multiple people both inside and outside of tech who’ve told me they do this for most of their long emails now.
jstanley 12 hours ago [-]
Yes, I use Cursor every day. It has changed my life.
stevedonovan 11 hours ago [-]
But this is one thing that Gen AI is genuinely good at, constructing computer programs under close human supervision. It's also the most profitable (but not enough to justify valuations) Also, it may be a big thing here but its pretty niche in the larger scheme of things
The article is about it encroaching in the domain of human communications. Mass adoption is the only way to justify the incredible financial promises.
kasey_junk 9 hours ago [-]
I use Claude at least weekly to help write documents for me. And I’m a good writer, who spent a lot of time and energy getting that way. I have a friend who is a terrible writer who I do proofreading for. He uses chatgpt and it’s made a world of difference for him in getting things accomplished and communicating what he wants.
I think there are lots of valid arguments against llm usage, but it’s extremely tiring to here how it’s not useful when I get so much use out of it.
PeterStuer 12 hours ago [-]
I still remember how the very first Office Copilot video/mockup?/ads had people very excited. When they finally got it, it was meh for most.
jasonsb 11 hours ago [-]
I’ve observed the opposite—not enough people are leveraging AI, especially in government institutions. Critical time and taxpayer money are wasted on tasks that could be automated with state-of-the-art models. Instead of embracing efficiency, these organizations perpetuate inefficiency at public expense.
The same issue plagues many private companies. I’ve seen employees spend days drafting documents that a free tool like Mistral could generate in seconds, leaving them 30-60 minutes to review and refine. There's a lot of resistance from the public. They're probably thinking that their job will be saved if they refuse to adopt AI tools.
sasaf5 11 hours ago [-]
> I’ve seen employees spend days drafting documents that a free tool like Mistral could generate in seconds, leaving them 30-60 minutes to review and refine.
What I have seen is employees spending days asking the model again and again to actually generate the document they need, and then submit it without reviewing it, only for a problem to explode a month later because no one noticed a glaring absurdity in the middle of the AI-polished garbage.
AI is the worst kind of liar: a bullshitter.
jasonsb 10 hours ago [-]
You're describing incompetence or laziness—I’ve encountered those kinds of people as well. But I’ve also seen others who are 2-3 times more productive thanks to AI. That said, I’m not suggesting AI should be used for every single task, especially if the output is garbage. If someone blindly relies on AI without adding any real value beyond typing prompts, then they’re not contributing anything meaningful.
Disposal8433 2 hours ago [-]
> incompetence or laziness [...] If someone blindly relies on AI
That's basic human behavior and AI won't fix this. It will only make it worse, and that's my main gripe with AI.
7 hours ago [-]
multjoy 9 hours ago [-]
Days to write a document, but you think that it'll only take 30-60 minutes to review AI slop that may, or may not, bear any relationship to the truth?
jasonsb 4 hours ago [-]
I'm talking boilerplate, not scientific research. It's crazy that we're starting to see research done by AI but a lot of boilerplate is still done manually.
watwut 10 hours ago [-]
Yeah, no you cant see that yet. What you see is comparison between own super optimistic imagined idea of useful AI with either reality or even knee jerk "goverment is stupid and wastful becauce Musk said so".
lukaslevert 11 hours ago [-]
The irony is it’ll likely be the opposite.
taneq 9 hours ago [-]
The thing is, though, that time wasn’t wasted. It was spent fully understanding what they were actually trying to say, the context, the connotations of various different phrasings etc. It was spent mapping the territory. Throwing your initial, unexamined description into a prompt might generate something that looks enough like the email they’d have written, but it’s not been thought through. If the 10 minutes’ thought spent on the prompt was sufficient, the final email wouldn’t be taking days to do by hand.
raintrees 3 hours ago [-]
"There ought to be a law" is why we have nanny-state government. I imagine that is why there have been "no spitting" and "no chewing gum" laws on the books.
People going to lord it over others in the pursuit of what they think is proper.
Society is over-rated, once it gets beyond a certain size.
Along the same lines, I am currently starting my morning with blocking ranges of IP addresses to get Internet service back, due to someone's current desire to SYN Flood my webserver, which being hosted in my office, affects my office Internet.
It may soon come to a point where I choose to block all IP addresses except a few to get work done.
It's because the integrations with existing products are arbitrary and poorly thought through, the same way that software imposed by executive fiat in BigCo offices for trend-chasing reasons has always been.
petekoomen made this point recently in a creative way: AI Horseless Carriages - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43773813 - April 2025 (478 comments)
I mean, you would think someone very rich who invests in companies would be somewhat smart. But, I'm convinced, a lot of them would do much better if they made no decisions at all and left everything up to entropy.
Everyone nodding along, yup yup this all makes sense
This is the next great upset. Everyone's hair is on fire and it's anybody's ball game.
I wouldn't even count the hyperscalers as certain to emerge victorious. The unit economics of everything and how things are bought and sold might change.
We might have agents that scrub ads from everything and keep our inboxes clean. We might find content of all forms valued at zero, and have no need for social networking and search as they exist today.
And for better or worse, there might be zero moat around any of it.
This is called an ad blocker.
> keep our inboxes clean
This is called a spam filter.
The entire parent comment is just buzzword salad. In fact I am inclined to think it was written by an LLM itself.
There's really only two browsers and one search engine. It doesn't matter what you do, because the rest of society is ensnared and the economic activities that matter are held captive.
If generative models compress all of the useful activities (lowering the incumbency moat) and agents can perform actions on our behalf, then it reasons that we may have agents that act as personal assistants and have our best interests as top priority. Ads are clearly in violation of that.
It's so funny to be a contrarian on HN. I get quite a lot of predictions right, yet all I get in exchange is downvotes and claims that I'm an LLM. I'll have to write a retro one of these days if I ever find the free time.
Having all these popups announcing new integrations with AI chatbots showing up while you are just trying to do your work is pretty annoying. It feels like this time we are fighting an army of Clippies.
I don't want shitty bolt-ons, I want to be able to give chatgtp/claude/gemini frontier models the ability to access my application data and make api calls for me to remotely drive tools.
The weirdest location I've found the most useful LLM-based feature so far has been Edge with it's automatic tab grouping. It doesn't always pick the best groups and probably uses some really small model, but it's significantly faster and easier than anything that I've had so far.
I hope they do bookmarks next and that someone copies the feature and makes it use a local model (like Safari or Firefox, I don't even care).
> "I am a huge AI supporter, and use it extensively for [...] most of my decision making processes"
How do you get outsourcing from this? Maybe they're using it to organize their thoughts, explore alternatives. Nowhere do they say they're not still making the decisions themselves.
I said decision making process, as did they.
Nobody said that they are letting the AI make the decisions.
They use it for their decision making process.
When you use a pen for your writing processes, are you outsourcing the process of writing to the pen? Or are you using it?
When the first thing you say to a stranger is an insult, I wonder, is that a domestically-produced decision? Doesn't seem very high-quality.
The AI community treats potential customers as invaders. If you report a problem, the entire thing turns on you trying to convince you that you're wrong, or that you reported a problem because you hate the technology.
It's pathetic. It looks like a viper's nest. Who would want to do business with such people?
Better still, you could do that even with a hit air baloon and late middle-age technology! There is even a SF book series about that:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ragged_Astronauts
Actual promising AI tech doesn't even get the center stage, it doesn't get a chance to do it.
As godawful as this brute force, "change the laws because China!", 24x7 assault of LLM hypelords has been (and I love GP's analogy about finding a helicopter useful), and its been preeeeety unpleasant, there is a silver lining.
The compute and tooling needed for all the other under-explored, nifty as hell, highly accessible ML/AI stuff is like free by comparison now: there are H100s floating around for around a dollar an hour, L40s for sometimes pennies on that dollar, and like, all of neural machine translation or WaveNet era speech to text or resnet style transfer was done on like, a thousand bucks in today's compute. Lambda Labs has a promo on GB200 where its cheaper than H100!
And there's " plenty of room at the bottom": Jetson boards and super cool autonomy stuff like that is Raspberry Pi accessible.
I'd rather they didn't feel the need to like, take over the government to get terrawatts of "just make it bigger", but given that's sort of already happened, I'm looking for what opportunities are created by such monomania.
Raise subscription prices, don’t deliver more value, bundle everything together so you can’t say no. I canceled a small Workspace org I use for my consulting business after the price hike last year; also migrating away everything we had on GCP. Google would have to pay me to do business with them again.
It's just rent-seeking. Nobody wants to actually build products for market anymore; it's a long process with a lot of risk behind it, and there's a chance you won't make shit for actual profit. If however you can create a "do anything" product that can be integrated with huge software suites, you can make a LOT of money and take a lot of mind-share without really lifting a finger. That's been my read on the "AI Industry" for a long time.
And to be clear, the integration part is the only part they give a shit about. Arguably especially for AI, since operating the product is so expensive compared to the vast majority of startups trying to scale. Serving JPEGs was never nearly as expensive for Instagram as responding to ChatGPT inquiries is for OpenAI, so they have every reason to diminish the number coming their way. Being the hip new tech that every CEO needs to ram into their product, irrespective of it does... well, anything useful, while also being so frustrating or obtuse for users to actually want to use, is arguably an incredibly good needle to thread, if they can manage it.
And the best part is, if OpenAI's products do actually do what they say on the tin, there's a good chance many lower rungs of employment will be replaced with their stupid chatbots, again irrespective of whether or not they actually do the job. Businesses run on "good enough." So it's great, if OpenAI fails, we get tons of useless tech injected into software products already creaking under the weight of so much bullhockety, and if they succeed, huge swaths of employees will be let go from entry level jobs, flooding the market, cratering the salary of entire categories of professions, and you'll never be able to get a fucking problem resolved with a startup company again. Not that you probably could anyway but it'll be even more frustrating.
And either way, all the people responsible for making all your technology worse every day will continue to get richer.
I think this is the key idea. Right now it doesn't work that well, but if it did work as advertised, that would also be bad.
Only a few bystanders seem to notice the IP theft and laundering, the adversarial content barriers to protect from scraping, the centralization of capital within the owners of frontier models, the dial-up of the already insane race to collect personal data, the flooding of every communication channel with AI slop and spam, and the inevitable impending enshittification of massive proportions.
I’ve seen the sausage get made, enough to know the game. They’re establishing new dominance hierarchies, with each iteration being more cynical and predatory, each cycle refined to optimally speedrun the rent seeking value extraction. Yes, there are still important discussions about the tech itself. But it’s the deployment that concerns everyone, not hypothetically, but right now.
Exhibit A: social media. In hindsight, what was more important: the core technologies or the business model and deployment?
Those are two problems in this situation that are both bad for different reasons. It's bad to have all the money concentrated in the hands of a tiny number of losers (and my god are they losers) and AI as a technology is slated to, in the hands of said losers, cause mass unemployment, if they can get it working good enough to pass that very low bar.
Also, everyone who requires these sophisticated models now needs to send everything to the gatekeepers. You could argue that we already send a lot of data to public clouds. However, there was no economically viable way for cloud vendors to read, interpret, and reuse my data — my intellectual property and private information. With more and more companies forcing AI capabilities on us, it's often unclear who runs those models and who receives the data and what is really happening to the data.
This aggregation of power and centralisation of data worries me as much as the shortcomings of LLMs. The technology is still not accurate enough. But we want it to be accurate because we are lazy. So I fear that we will end up with many things of diminished quality in favour of cheaper operating costs — time will tell.
Open Source endeavors will have a hard time to bear the resources to train models that are competitive. Maybe we will see larger cooperatives, like a Apache Software Foundation for ML?
There are a number of reasons to do this: You want local inference, you want attention from devs and potential users etc.
Also the smaller self hostable models are where most of the improvement happens these days. Eventually they'll catch up with where the big ones are today. At this point I honestly wouldn't worry too much about "gatekeepers."
I’d support an Apache for ML but I suspect it’s unnecessary. Look at all of the money companies spend developing Linux; it will likely be the same story.
I suspect the Linux Foundation might be a more likely source considering its backers and how much those backers have provided LF by way of resources. Whether that's aligned with LF's goals ...
Perhaps, but see also SETI@home and similar @home/BOINC projects.
GPU: RTX 5090 (no rops missing), 32 GB VRAM
Quants: Unsloth Dynamic 2.0, it's 4-6 bits depending on the layer.
RAM is 96 GB: more RAM makes a difference even if the model fits entirely in the GPU: filesystem pages containing the model on disk are cached entirely in RAM so when you switch models (we use other models as well) the overhead of unloading/loading is 3-5 seconds.
The Key Value Cache is also quantized to 8 bit (less degrades quality considerably).
This gives you 1 generation with 64k context, or 2 concurrent generations with 32k each. Everything takes 30 GB VRAM, which also leaves some space for a Whisper speech-to-text model (turbo & quantized) running in parallel as well.
From what I understand, vLLM is best when there's only 1 active model pinned to the GPU and you have many concurrent users (4, 8 etc.). But with just a single 32 GB GPU you have to switch the models pretty often, plus you can't fit more than 2 concurrent users without sacrificing context length considerably (4 users = just 16k context), so I think vLLM so far isn't worth it yet. Plus, to deploy llama.cpp, you just copy a single binary. Once we have several cards I may switch to vLLM.
For the consumer side, you'll be the product, not the one paying in money just like before.
For the creator side, it will depend on how competition in the market sustains. Expect major regulatory capture efforts to eliminate all but a very few 'sanctioned' providers in the name of 'safety'. If only 2 or 3 remain, it might get realy expensive.
The scale issue isn't the LLM provider, it's the power grid. Worldwide, 250 W/capita. Your body is 100 W and you have a duty cycle of 25% thanks to the 8 hour work day and having weekends, so in practice some hypothetical AI trying to replace everyone in their workplaces today would need to be more energy efficient than the human body.
Even with the extraordinarily rapid roll-out of PV, I don't expect this to be able to be one-for-one replacement for all human workers before 2032, even if the best SOTA model was good enough to do so (and they're not, they've still got too many weak spots for that).
This also applies to open-weights models, which are already good enough to be useful even when SOTA private models are better.
> You could argue that we already send a lot of data to public clouds. However, there was no economically viable way for cloud vendors to read, interpret, and reuse my data — my intellectual property and private information. With more and more companies forcing AI capabilities on us, it's often unclear who runs those models and who receives the data and what is really happening to the data.
I dispute that it was not already a problem, due to the GDPR consent popups often asking to share my browsing behaviour with more "trusted partners" than there were pupils in my secondary school.
But I agree that the aggregation of power and centralisation of data is a pertinent risk.
Please don't. I am going to read this email. Adding more text just makes me read more.
I am sure there's a common use case of people who get a ton of faintly important email from colleagues. But this is my personal account and the only people contacting me are friends. (Everyone else should not be summarized; they should be trashed. And to be fair I am very grateful for Gmail's excellent spam filtering.)
There are open source or affordable, paid alternatives for everything the author mentioned. However, there are many places where you must use these things due to social pressure, lock-in with a service provider (health insurance co, perhaps), and yes unfortunately I see some of these things as soon or now unavoidable.
Another commenter mentioned that ChatGPT is one of the most popular websites on the internet and therefore users clearly do want this. I can easily think of two points that refute that: 1. The internet has shown us time and time again that popularity doesn’t indicate willingness to pay (which paid social networks had strong popularity…?) 2. There are many extremely popular websites that users wouldn’t want to be woven throughout the rest of their personal and professional digital lives
It is like Clippy, which no one wanted. Hopefully, like Clippy, "AI" will be scrapped at some point.
LLMs are not very predictable. And that's not just true for the output. Each change to the model impacts how it parses and computes the input. For someone claiming to be a "Prompt Engineer", this cannot work. There are so many variables that are simply unknown to the casual user: training methods, the training set, biases, ...
If I get the feeling I am creating good prompts for Gemini 2.5 Pro, the next version might render those prompts useless. And that might get even worse with dynamic, "self-improving" models.
So when we talk about "Vibe coding", aren't we just doing "Vibe prompting", too?
If you run an open source model from the same seed on the same hardware they are completely deterministic. It will spit out the same answer every time. So it’s not an issue with the technology and there’s nothing stopping you from writing repeatable prompts and promoting techniques.
Are you sure of that? Parallel scatter/gather operations may still be at the mercy of scheduling variances, due to some forms of computer math not being associative.
Whenever people talk about "prompt engineering", they're referring to randomly changing these kinds of things, in hopes of getting a query pattern where you get meaningful results 90% of the time.
The reason changing one word in a prompt to a close synonym changes the reply is because it is the specific words used in a series that is how information is embedded and recovered by LLMs. The 'in a series' aspect is subtle and important. The same topic is in the LLM multiple times, with different levels of treatment from casual to academic. Each treatment from casual to formal uses different words, similar words, but different and that difference is very meaningful. That difference is how seriously the information is being handled. The use of one term versus another term causes a prompt to index into one treatment of the subject versus another. The more formal the terms used, meaning the synonyms used by experts of that area of knowledge, generate the more accurate replies. While the close synonyms generate replies from outsiders of that knowledge, those not using the same phrases as those with the most expertise, the phrases used by those perhaps trying to understand but do not yet?
It is not randomly changing things in one's prompts at all. It's understanding the knowledge space one is prompting within such that the prompts generate accurate replies. This requires knowing the knowledge space one prompts within, so one knows the correct formal terms that unlock accurate replies. Plus, knowing that area, one is in a better position to identify hallucination.
Higher level programming languages may make choices for coders regarding lower level functionality, but they have syntactic and semantic rules that produce logically consistent results. Claiming that such rules exist for LLMs but are so subtle that only the ultra-enlightened such as yourself can understand them begs the question: If hardly anyone can grasp such subtlety, then who exactly are all these massive models being built for?
> It's not reproducible according to any useful logical framework that could be generally applied to other cases.
It absolutely is, you are refusing to accept that natural language contains this type of logical structure. You are repeatedly trying to project "magic incantations" allusions, when it is simply that you do not understand. Plus, you're openly hostile to the idea that this is a subtle logic you are not seeing.
It is a simple mechanism: multiple people treat the same subjects differently, with different words. Those that are professionally experts in an area tend to use the same words to describe their work. Use those words of you want the LLM to reply from their portion of the LLM's training. This is not any form of "magical incantation" it is knowing what you are referencing by using the formal terminology.
This is not magic, nor is it some kind of elite knowledge. Drop your anger and just realize that it's subtle, that's all. It is difficult to see, that is all. Why this causes developers to get so angry is beyond me.
The syntax writers may say: "I do more than write syntax! I think in systems, logic, processes, limits, edge cases, etc."
The response to that is: you don't need syntax to do that, yet until now syntax was the barrier to technical expression.
So ironically, when they show anger it is a form of hypocrisy: they already know that knowing how to write specific words is power. They're just upset that the specific words that matter have changed.
Relying on model, seed, and hardware to get "repeatable" prompts essentially reduces an LLM to a very lossy natural language decompression algorithm. What other reason would someone have for asking the same question over and over and over again with the same input? If that's a problem you need solve then you need a database, not a deterministic LLM.
If I have to do extensive subtle prompt engineering and use a lot of mental effort to solve my problem... I'll just solve the problem instead. Programming is a mental discipline - I don't need help typing, and if using an AI means putting in more brainpower, its fundamentally failed at improving my ability to engineer software
conceding that this may be the case, there are entire categories of problems that i am now able to approach that i have felt discouraged from in the past. even if the code is wrong (which, for the most part, it isn't), there is a value for me to have a team of over-eager puppies fearlessly leading me into the most uninviting problems, and somehow the mess they may or may not create makes solving the problem more accessible to me. even if i have to clean up almost every aspect of their work (i usually don't), the "get your feet wet" part is often the hardest part for me, even with a design and some prototyping. i don't have this problem at work really, but for personal projects it's been much more fun to work with the robots than always bouncing around my own head.
The only way to successfully use AI is to have sufficient skill to review the code it generates for correctness - which is a problem that is at least as skilful as simply writing the code
They need to understand what the code does.
I don't think this is true. A lot of people had no interest until smartphones arrived. Doing anything on a smartphone is a miserable experience compared to using a desktop computer, but it's more convenient. "Worse but more convenient" is the same sales pitch as for AI, so I can only assume that AI will be accepted by the masses too.
So people didn't want to be walking around with a tether that allowed the whole world to call them where ever they were? Le Shock!
Now if they'd asked people if they'd like a small portable computer they could keep in touch with friends and read books, play games, play music and movies on where ever they went which also made phone calls. I suspect the answer might have been different.
We sat yesterday and watched a table of 4 lads drinking beer each just watch their phones. At the slightest gap in conversation, out they came.
They’re ruining human interaction. (The phone, not the beer-drinking lad.)
I almost never take my phone with me, especially when with my wife and son, as they always have theirs with them, although with elderly parents not in the best of health I really should take it more.
But it's something I see a lot these days, in fact, the latest Vodafone ad in the uk has a bunch of lads sitting outside a pub and one is laughing at something on his phone. There's also a betting ad where the guy is making bets on his phone (presumably) while in a restaurant with others!
I find this normalized behaviour somewhat concerning for the future.
[0] - https://abysspostcard.substack.com/p/party-like-it-is-1975
As text, email, other messages, websites, Facebook, etc. became available the draw became stronger and so did the addiction and the normalization of looking at your phone every 30 seconds while you were with someone.
Did SNL or anyone ever do a skit of a couple having sex and then "ding" a phone chimes and one of them picks it up and starts reading the message? And then the other one grabs their phone and starts scrolling?
If only the phone was available, and there was no stream of online content, this wouldn't be a problem. Also, if the online content was available, but no phones to look at it on-the-go, it would also not be a problem. Both of these things existed in the past, too, but only when they were hooked up together did it become the problem we see today.
Obviously saying “everyone” is hyperbole. There were luddites and skeptics about it just like with electricity and telephones. Nevertheless the dotcom boom is what every new industry hopes to be.
In 20 years AI will be pervasive and nobody will remember being one of the luddites.
Whether the opposition was massive or not, in proportion to the enthusiasm and optimism about the globally connected information superhighway, isn’t something I can quantify, so I’ll bow out of the conversation.
Internet of things was largely BS.
It's bullshit.
I mean, sure: there were people who hated the Internet. There still are! They were very clearly a minority, and almost exclusively older people who didn't like change. Most of them were also unhappy about personal computers in general.
But the Internet caught on very fast, and was very, very popular. It was completely obvious how positive it was, and people were making businesses based on it left and right that didn't rely on grifting, artificial scarcity, or convincing people that replacing their own critical thinking skills with a glorified autocomplete engine was the solution to all their problems. (Yes, there were also plenty of scams and unsuccessful businesses. They did not in any way outweigh the legitimate successes.)
By contrast, generative AI, while it has a contingent of supporters that range from reasonable to rabid, is broadly disliked by the public. And a huge reason for that is how much it is being pushed on them against their will, replacing human interaction with companies and attempting to replace other things like search.
>By contrast, generative AI, while it has a contingent of supporters that range from reasonable to rabid, is broadly disliked by the public.
It is absolutely wild how people can just ignore something staring right at them, plain as day.
ChatGPT.com is the 5 most visited site on the planet and growing. It's the fastest growing software product ever, with over 500M Weekly active users and over a billion messages per day. Just ChatGPT. This is not information that requires corporate espionage. The barest minimum effort would have shown you how blatantly false you are.
What exactly is the difference between this and a LLM hallucination ?
No condescension necessary.
US Public Opinion is negative ? Really ? How do you figure that ?
Of course it’s a bubble! Most new tech like this is until it gets to a point where the market is too saturated or has been monopolised.
I bet if you go back to the printing press, telegraph, telephone, etc. you will find people saying "it's only a bubble!".
Also the requests aren't answered locally. Your data is forwarded to the AI's DC, processed and the answer returned. You can be absolutely certain that they keep a copy of your data.
All the anti-AI people I know are in their 30s. I think there are many in this age group that got use to nothing changing and are wishing it to stay that way.
We won’t solve climate change but we will have elaborate essays why we failed.
Or are they the only ones who understand that the rate of real information/(spam+disinformation+misinformation+lies) is worse than ever? And that in the past 2 years, this was thanks to AI, and people who never check what garbage AI spew out? And only they are who cares to not consume the shit? Because clearly above 50, most of them were completely fine with it for decades now. Do you say that below 30 most of the people are fine to consume garbage? I mean, seeing how many young people started to deny Holocaust, I can imagine it, but I would like some hard data, and not just some AI level guesswork.
So what are you talking about?
If you answer no, does that make you an unwilling user of social media? It’s the most visited sites in the world after all, how could randomly injecting it into your GPS navigation system be a poor fit?
I'm not unwilling to use AI in places where I choose. But let's not pretend that just because people do use it in one place, they are willing to have it shoved upon them in every other place.
I was searching for something on Omnissa Horizon here: https://docs.omnissa.com/
It has some kind of ChatGPT integration, and I tried it and it found the answer I was looking for straight away, after 10 minutes of googling and manual searching had failed.
Seems to be not working at the moment though :-/
I just don't participate in discussions about Facebook marketplace links friends share, or Instagram reels my D&D groups post.
So in a sense I agree with you, forcing AI into products is similar to forcing advertising into products.
I wonder how many uses of Chatgpt and such are malicious.
So they may have been on to something
I say I imagine it's annoying because I've yet to actually be annoyed much but I get the idea. I actually quite like the Google AI bit - you can always not read it if you don't want to. AI generated content on youtube is a bit of a mixed bag - it tends to be kinda bad but you can click stop and play another video. My office 2019 is gloriously out of date and does that stuff I want without the recent nonsense.
And of course there's no way to disable it without also losing calculator, unit conversions, and other useful functionality.
Also:
> As per SimilarWeb data 61.05% of ChatGPT's traffic comes from YouTube, which means from all the social media platforms YouTube viewers are the largest referral source of its user base,
That's deeply suspect.
In fact I also tried the communication part - outside of Outlook - but people don't like superficial AI polish
The top of the list has got to be that one of their testimonials presented to investors is from "DrDeflowerMe". It's also interesting to me because they list financials which position them as unbelievably tiny: 6,215 subscribing accounts, 400 average new accounts per month, which to me sounds like they have a lot of churn.
I'm in my third year of subscribing and I'm actively looking for a replacement. This "Start Engine" investment makes me even more confident that's the right decision. Over the years I've paid nearly $200/year for this and watched them fail to deliver basic functionality. They just don't have the team to deliver AI tooling. For example: 2 years ago I spoke with support about the screen that shows you your credit card numbers being nearly unreadable (very light grey numbers on a white background), which still isn't fixed. Around a year ago a bunch of my auto transfers disappeared, causing me hundreds of dollars in late fees. I contacted support and they eventually "recovered" all the missing auto-transfers, but it ended up with some of them doubled up, and support stopped responding when I asked them to fix that.
I question if they'll be able to implement the changes they want, let alone be able to support those features if they do.
Once upon a time, not too long ago, there was someone who would bag your groceries, and someone who would clean your window at the gas station. Now you do self-checkout. Has anyone asked for this? Your quality of life is worse, the companies are automating away humanity into something they think is more profitable for them.
In a society where you don't have government protection for such companies, there would be other companies who provide a better service whose competition would win. But when you have a fat corrupt government, lobbying makes sense, and crony-capitalism births monopolies which cannot have any competition. Then they do whatever they want to you and society at large, and they don't owe you, you owe them. Your tax dollars sponsor all of this even more than your direct payments do.
While government sponsored monopolies certainly exist, monopolies themselves are a natural outcome of competition.
Deregulation would break some monopolies while encouraging others to grow. The new monopolies may be far worse than the ones we had before.
https://www.sciotoanalysis.com/news/2024/7/12/how-much-do-yo...
It seems here on the ground in non-tech bubble land, people use ChatGPT a ton and lean hard on AI features.
When Google judges the success of bolted on AI, they are looking at how Jane and John General Public use it, not how xleet007 uses it(or doesn't).
There is also the fact that AI is still just being bolted onto things now. The next iteration of this software will be AI native, and the revisions after that will iron out big wrinkles.
When settings menus and ribbon panels are optional because you can just tell the program what to do in plain English, that will be AI integration.
Marsha Blackburn's amendment to remove the "AI legislation moratorium" from the "Big Beautiful Bill" passed the Senate 99-1.
People are getting really fed up with "AI", "crypto" and other scams.
If you look at the survey results, a few things jump out.
Firstly, there's a strong age skew. The people most likely to benefit from AI features in their software are those who are judged directly on their computing productivity, i.e. the young. Around half of 18-35 year olds say they would pay extra, even . It's only amongst the old that this drops to 20%.
Secondly, when asked directly if they value a range of AI-driven features, they say yes.
The skew opens up because companies like OpenAI give AI services away for free. There's just a really strong expectation established by the tech industry that software is either free or paid for by a low and very price-stable monthly subscription. This is also true in AI: you only pay for ChatGPT if you want more features and smarter models. For the majority of things that people are doing with AI right now, the free version of ChatGPT is good enough. What remains is mostly low value stuff like better autocomplete, where indeed people are probably not that interested in paying more for it.
Unfortunately Ted Gioia tries to use this stat to imply people don't want AI at all, which is not only untrue but trivially untrue; ChatGPT is the fastest growing product in history.
I will pay people for the value they create. I won't pay for AI content, or AI integrations. They are not interesting or valuable to me.
Highways.
In my European country you have to pay a toll to use a highway. Most people opt to use them, instead of taking the old 2-lane road that existed before the highway and is still free.
pretty much the whole population also wants tax cuts.
It's kind of insane out there in tax land.
- me, a few years ago.
I find the whole situation with regard to AI utterly ridiculous and boring. While those algos might have some interesting applications, they're not as earth-shattering as we are made to believe, and their utility is, to me at least, questionable.
love this quote !
The whole sales-pitch for AI is predicated on FOMO - from developers being replaced by AI-enabled engineers to countries being left-behind by AI-slop. Like crypto, the idea is to get-big-fast, and become too big to fail. This worked for social-media but I find it hard to believe it can work for AI.
My hope is that: while some of the people can be fooled all the time, all the people cannot be fooled all the time.
Software is loyal to the owner. If you don't own your software, software won't be loyal to you. It can be convenient for you, but as time passes and interest changes, if you don't own software it can turn against you. And you shouldn't blame Microsoft or it's utilities. It doesn't owe you anything just because you put effort in it and invested time in it. It'll work according to who it's loyal to, who owns it.
If it bothers you, choose software you can own. If you can't choose software you own now, change your life so you can in the future. And if you just can't, you have to accept the consequences.
maybe i'm doing something wrong here, but even ddg is annoying me with this.
I also feel an urge to build spaces in the internet just for humans, with some 'turrets' to protect against AI invasion and exploitation. I just don't know what content would be shared in those spaces because AI is already everywhere in content production.
It’s like IPV6, if it really was a huge benefit to the end user, we’d have adopted it already.
After seeing something like blockchain run completely afoul/used for the wrong things and embraced by the public for it, I at least agree that AI has a value perception problem.
Just from current ARR announcements: 3b+ anthropic, 10b+ oai, whatever google makes, whatever ms makes, yeah people are already paying for it.
"If it was any good, people would pay for it."
"The data shows people are paying for it."
"Aah but they don't know they're paying for it."
And VC investments are distorting markets - unprofitable companies kill profitable ones before crashing.
I use Kagi who returns excellent results, also when I need non AI verbatim queries.
Displaying what you searched for immediately is cannibalizing that market.
I'm guessing ads in AI results is the logical next step.
Badly summarise articles.
Outright invent local attractions that don’t exist.
Gave subtly wrong, misleading advice about employment rights.
All while coming across as confidently authoritative.
People don't know how to search, that's it. Even the HN population.
Every time this gets posted, I ask for one example of thing you tried to find and what keywords you used. So I'm giving you the same offer, give me for one thing you couldn't find easily on Google and the keywords you used, and I'll show you Google search is just fine.
How do you set up an encrypted file on linux that can be mounted and accessed same as a hard drive.
(note: luks, a few commands)
You will see a nonsensical ai summarization, lots of videos and junk websites being promoted then you'll likely find a few blogs with the actual commands needed. Nowhere is there a link to a manual for luks or similar.
This in the past had the no-ad straightforward blogs as first links, then some man pages, then other unrelated things for the same searches that i do now and get garbage.
At the top there's a "featured snippet" from opensource.com, allegedly from 2021, that begins with: create an empty file (this turns out to mean a file of given size with no useful data in it, not a size-0 file), then make a LUKS volume using cryptsetup, etc.
First actual search result is a question on Ask Ubuntu (the Stack Exchange site dedicated to Ubuntu) headed "How do I create an encrypted filesystem inside a file?" which unless I'm confused is at least the correct question. Top answer there (from 2017) looks plausible and seems to be describing the same steps as the "featured snippet". A couple of other links to Ask Ubuntu are given below that one but they seem worse.
Next search result is a Reddit thread that describes how to do something different but possibly still of interest to someone who wants to do the thing you describe.
Next search result is a question on unix.stackexchange.com that turns out to be about something different; under it are other results from the same site, the first of which has a cryptsetup-based recipe that seems similar to the other plausible ones mentioned above.
Further search results continue to have a good density of plausible-looking answers to essentially the intended question.
This all seems fairly satisfactory assuming the specific answers don't turn out to be garbage, which doesn't look very likely; it seems like Google has done a decent job here. It doesn't specifically turn up the LUKS manual, but then that wasn't the question you actually asked.
Having done that search to find that the relevant command seems to be cryptsetup and the underlying facility is called LUKS, searches for <<cryptsetup manual>> and <<luks documentation>> (again, the first search terms that came to mind) look to me like they find the right things.
(Google isn't my first-choice search engine at present; DuckDuckGo provides similar results in all these cases.)
I am not taking any sides on the broader question of whether in general Google can give good search results if one picks the right words for it, but in this particular case it seems OK.
It shoed 25 or so URLs as the source.
That "AI generated slop" IS Google's main response now. I posted it so that someone might have a look to see if/how correct it actually is, your response, that does not deign to even look, is less than helpful - if you want to complain about Google not being useful, how about your own response?
try "mount luks encrypted file" or "luks file mount". too many words and any grammar at all will degrade your results. it's all about keywords
edit: after trying it myself i quickly realized the problem - luks related articles are usually about drives or partitions, not about files. this search got me what i wanted: "luks mount file -partition -filesystem" i found this article[1], which is in german (my native tongue), but contained the right information.
1: https://blog.netways.de/blog/2018/07/25/verschluesselten-fil...
I still find online recipes convenient, but I don't blindly trust details like cooking time and temperature. (I mean, those things are always subject to variability, but now I don't trust the times to even be in the right ballpark.)
Happily, there are some cooks that I think deserve our trust, e.g. Chef John.
Some are excited about it. Some are actually making something cool with AI. Very few are both.
Only when I went to cancel[1], suddenly they made me aware that there was a "classic" subscription that was the normal price, without CoPilot. So they basically just upsized everyone to try to force uptake.
[1] - I'm in the AI business and am a user and abuser of AI daily, but I don't need it built directly into every app. I Already have AI subscriptions and local models and solutions.
Recently I tried to cancel notion account of some people in our org and it wouldn’t let me do it easily so just cancelled the whole notion subscription, really wish they would go out of business for doing these kind of things
As a data point, the "Stop Killing Games" one has passed the needed 1M signatures so is in good shape:
https://www.stopkillinggames.com
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/702074/
The point is that thinking number of signatures is a victory is naive.
You can't use this as an example of success until you actually achieve something.
People would be less upset if ai is shown to support the person. This also allows that person to curate the output and ignore it if needed before sharing it, so it’s a win/win.
But is the big money in revolution?
The thing that really chafes me about this AI, irrespective of whether it is awesome or not, is emitting all of the information to some unknown server. To go with another Zappa reference, AI becomes The Central Scrutinizer[2].
I predict an increasing use of Free Software by discerning people who want to maintain more control of their information.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPFIkty4Zvk
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe%27s_Garage#Lyrical_and_sto...
Tyranny is a real thing which exists in the world and is not exemplified by “product manager adding text expansion to word processor.”
The natural state of capitalism is trying things which get voted on by money. It’s always subject to boom-bust cycles and we are in a big boom. This will eventually correct itself once the public makes its position clear and the features which truly suck will get fixed or removed.
That is what the natural state of capitalism _would_ be in a world of honest businesspeople and politicians.
I don’t see the utility, all I see is slop and constant notifications in google.
You can say skill issue but that’s kind of the point; this was all dropped on me by people who don’t understand it themselves. I didn’t ask or want to built the skills to understand ai. Nor did my bosses: they are just following the latest wave. We are the blind leading the blind.
Like crypto ai will prove to be a dead end mistake that only enabled grifters
The reason your bosses are being obnoxious about making people use the internal AI tool is to push them into thinking about things like this. Perhaps at your company it’s genuinely not useful, but I’ve seen a lot of people say that who I’m pretty confident are wrong.
What about the impact on your audience? A lot of people are going to view your presentations more negatively based on their views about AI.
"I don’t want AI customer service—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI responses to my Google searches—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI integrated into my software—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI sending me emails—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI music on Spotify—but I don’t get a choice.
I don’t want AI books on Amazon—but I don’t get a choice."
The last is especially egregious. I don’t want poorly-written (by my standards) books cluttering up bookstores, but all my life I’ve walked into bookstores and found my favorite genres have lots of books I’m not interested in. Do I have some kind of right to have stores only stock products that I want?
The whole thing is just so damn entitled. If you don’t like something, don’t buy it. If you find the presence of some products offensive in a marketplace, don’t shop there. Spotify is not a human right.
Of course you can opt out. People live in the backwoods of Alaska. But if you want to live a semi normal life there is no option. And absolutely people should feel entitled to a normal life.
What book store will stock AI slop that no-one wants to buy?
They’re not trying to satisfy customers: they’re answering shareholders. Our system is no longer about offering the best products, it’s about having the market share to force people to do business with you or maybe two other equally bad companies that constantly look for ways to extract more money from people to make shareholders happy. See: Two choices of smartphone OS, ISP regional monopolies or duopolies, two consumer OSes, a handful of mobile carriers, almost all available TVs models being “smart TVs” laden with spyware…
(I’m speaking from the US perspective, this may not be as pronounced elsewhere.)
The reality is that most people like many of the things you or I might find useless or annoying.
There are better products, but they are niche. You pay more for a non-smart TV because 1) there’s less demand, and 2) the business model is different and requires full payment up front rather than long term monetization.
But who are you or I to look at the market and declare that both sellers and buyers are wrong about what they want? I’m very suspicious of any position as paternalistic as that.
The answer to this is regulation. See: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/apple-updates-app-...
Outside of a monopoly the best way to extract more money from people is to offer a better product. If AI is being forced and people do hate it, they'll move towards products that don't do that
What happened to Windows Recall being enabled by default? Surely it was in Microsoft's best interest to force it on people. But no, they reversed it after a huge backlash. You see this again and again
Of your examples, ISPs are the only one I can see that's hated without other options. Most people are quite happy with Windows/Mac/Android/iOS/Mint Mobile/Smart-TV-With-No-Internet-Access
It's fun to say "let's go write a complete replacement for Microsoft Office" or the Adobe suite or what have you, but that has a truly astonishing upfront cost to get to a point where it's even servicing 50% of the use cases, let alone 95 or 99%.
Or there's other examples where it's not obvious there's sufficient interest to finance an alternative - how many people are going to pay for something that replicates solely the old functionality of Microsoft Paint or Notepad, for example.
My guess is you'd very quickly get a bunch of teams scrambling to produce something to compete and capture a huge market by charging a tenth the price. Funding is taken care of when winning there is worth so much
Maybe it won't happen overnight because they're huge software suites.. but it will happen. We need regulations to take care of anti-competitive practices - but after that the market seems to work pretty well for keeping companies in check
If all of the factory owners discover a type of widget to sell that can incidentally drive down wages the more units they move, it's unlikely for consumers to be provided much choice in their future widgets.
$30 blenders that break in 3 months haven't bankrupted Vitamix
If quality were a sufficiently motivating aspect, Google's deteriorating search wouldn't be a constant theme on this site, and people on the street would know where to download and play a FLAC file.
There's also a segment of the market that wants the FLAC, premium handcrafted experiences at top price. They're not in direct competition and both can co-exist
My initial point was that companies can't just exploit consumers relentlessly because the market won't let them. The good value option can't just box people in and show them only ads. I bet YouTube would love to show you unskippable ads for 75% of the video length. Good luck staying market leader with that
I don't think Google is a good example here. They've been actively trying to fight and failing against SEO and affiliate spam for a decade. No-one else has solved that problem either which is why Google remains at the top. I personally had a hand-crafted content site thrown out of their search results because of them going after spam
Six-plus months ago they put a chatbot in the bottom right corner of their website that literally covers up buttons I use all the time for ordering, so that I have to scroll now in order to access those controls (Chrome, MacOS). After testing it with various queries it only seems to provide answers to questions in their pre-existing support documentation.
This is not about choice (see above, they are the only game in town), and it is not about entitlement (we're a tiny shop trying to serve our customers' often obscure book requests). They seemed to literally place the chatbot buttons onto their website with no polling of their users. This is an anecdotal report about Ingram specifically.
That's objective; subjectively, it feels like there are individuals who were given the ability to "try new stuff" and "break things" who chose to follow the hype around features that look like this. The chat button seems to me to be an exercise in following-the-herd which actually sucks for me as a user with it blocking my old buttons.
I don't think it's entitlement to make a well-mannered complaint about how little choice we actually have when it comes to the whims of the tech giants.
The OP's point is that increasingly, we don't have that choice, for example, because AI slop masquerades as if it were authored by human beings (that's, in fact, its purpose!), or because the software applications you rely on suddenly start pushing "AI companions" on you, whether you want them or not, or because you have no viable alternatives to the software applications you use, so you must put up with those "AI companions," whether you want them in your life or not.
Probably no one enjoys AI books though. I did my best at devils advocate on that above.
Politicians often use AI to summarise proposals and amendments to the laws. And later vote based on those summaries. It's incredible how artifical bureaucracy is driven by artifical intelligence. And how citizens don't care to follow artificial laws that ruins humanity.
The whole point is that "just don't buy it" as a strategy doesn't work anymore for consumers to guide the market when the companies have employed the rock-for-dessert gambit to avoid having to try to sell their products on their merits.
It's ridiculous to compare bad human books with bad AI books because there many human books which are life-changing, but there isn't a single AI book which isn't trash.
I said no. Respect my preferences.
Is not false statistics. "Nobody wanted or asked for this" is literally true.
The article is about it encroaching in the domain of human communications. Mass adoption is the only way to justify the incredible financial promises.
I think there are lots of valid arguments against llm usage, but it’s extremely tiring to here how it’s not useful when I get so much use out of it.
The same issue plagues many private companies. I’ve seen employees spend days drafting documents that a free tool like Mistral could generate in seconds, leaving them 30-60 minutes to review and refine. There's a lot of resistance from the public. They're probably thinking that their job will be saved if they refuse to adopt AI tools.
What I have seen is employees spending days asking the model again and again to actually generate the document they need, and then submit it without reviewing it, only for a problem to explode a month later because no one noticed a glaring absurdity in the middle of the AI-polished garbage.
AI is the worst kind of liar: a bullshitter.
That's basic human behavior and AI won't fix this. It will only make it worse, and that's my main gripe with AI.
People going to lord it over others in the pursuit of what they think is proper.
Society is over-rated, once it gets beyond a certain size.
Along the same lines, I am currently starting my morning with blocking ranges of IP addresses to get Internet service back, due to someone's current desire to SYN Flood my webserver, which being hosted in my office, affects my office Internet.
It may soon come to a point where I choose to block all IP addresses except a few to get work done.
People gonna be people.
sigh.